Seamheads Historical League Preview – Part 2 of 7 – National Association Division
January 20, 2009 by Brian Joseph · 4 Comments
Welcome back to the preview of the Seamheads Historical League. Today, we break down the National Association Division consisting of the four National League teams that initially found their roots in the defunct American Association. As a reminder about the lineups and rotations below, those are just projections and not the actual lineups that will be used once the season begins.
The four teams that make up the National Association Division are the Cincinnati Reds(originally the Cincinnati Red Stockings in 1882 then the Reds from 1890 to 1953 to the Redlegs from 1954 to 1959 and back to the Reds from 1960 on), the Pittsburgh Pirates(debuted as the Pittsburg Alleghenys in 1882 and changed to the Pirates in 1891), the St. Louis Cardinals(initially the St. Louis Brown Stockings in 1882 then the nickname was quickly shortened to the Browns in 1883 then changed to the Perfectos for the 1899 season before becoming the Cardinals in 1900) and the Los Angeles Dodgers(who suffered an identity crisis in Brooklyn — the Atlantics (1884), the Grays (1885-1887), the Bridegrooms (1888-1890), the Grooms (1891-1895), the Bridegrooms again (1896-1898), the Superbas (1899-1910), the Dodgers (1911-1912), the Superbas again (1913), the Robins (1914-1931) and back to the Dodgers for good (1932-1957) — then moved to Los Angeles in 1958).
TEAM PREVIEWS
CINCINNATI REDS (1882-2008, 5 World Championships, 10 Pennants, 12 Playoff Appearances)
GENERAL MANAGER: Andy Andres , BaseballHQ.com Data Analyst
40-Man Roster
Catchers (2): Johnny Bench, Ernie Lombardi
Infielders (10): Dave Concepcion, Heinie Groh, Ted Kluszewski, Barry Larkin, Bid McPhee, Joe Morgan, Tony Perez, Pete Rose, Joey Votto, Bill Werber
Outfielders (10): Sam Crawford, Eric Davis, George Foster, Harry Heilmann, Charley Jones, Frank McCormick, Kevin Mitchell, Frank Robinson, Edd Roush, Cy Seymour
Pitchers (18): Ewell Blackwell, Jeff Brantley, Clay Carroll, Paul Derringer, Rob Dibble, John Franco, Juan Guzman, Harvey Haddix, Noodles Hahn, Red Lucas, Dolf Luque, Gary Nolan, Jose Rijo, Tom Seaver, Jeff Shaw, Greg Swindell, Edinson Volquez, Scott Williamson
MY LINEUPS
vs. LHP
1. Pete Rose (3B)
2. Edd Roush (CF)
3. Joe Morgan (2B)
4. Johnny Bench (C)
5. Frank Robinson (LF)
6. Tony Perez (1B)
7. Barry Larkin (SS)
8. George Foster (RF)
vs. RHP
1. Rose (3B)
2. Roush (CF)
3. Morgan (2B)
4. Bench (C)
5. F.Robinson (LF)
6. Ted Kluszewski (1B)
7. Larkin (SS)
8. Foster (RF)
Bench:Perez/Kluszewski, Ernie Lombardi, Bid McPhee, Bill Werber, Dave Concepcion, Eric Davis, Harry Heilmann
Rotation
1. Noodles Hahn
2. Tom Seaver
3. Paul Derringer
4. Red Lucas
5. Jose Rijo
Bullpen
Rob Dibble
Jeff Brantley
Clay Carroll
Jeff Shaw
Closer
John Franco
On the Farm:Sam Crawford, Joey Votto, Cy Seymour, Heinie Groh, Charley Jones, Frank McCormick, Kevin Mitchell, Harvey Haddix, Ewell Blackwell, Juan Guzman, Dolf Luque, Gary Nolan, Greg Swindell, Edinson Volquez, Scott Williamson
Five Questions…
- Is Ernie Lombardi a better choice to start than Johnny Bench?
- When will Vada Pinson (not on the roster) finally catch a post-career break?
- With all the available closers, do the Reds just go bullpen by committee?
- Should Edd Roush or someone other than “Charlie Hustle” lead off?
- Speaking of Pete Rose, would he bet on this club to win?
LOS ANGELES DODGERS (1884-2008, 6 World Championships, 22 Pennants, 27 Playoff Appearances)
GENERAL MANAGER: Ron Kaplan , New Jersey Jewish News Editor
40-Man Roster
Catchers (5): Roy Campanella, Mike Piazza, Johnny Roseboro, Norm Sherry, Steve Yeager
Infielders (13): Dolph Camilli, Ron Cey, Billy Cox, Steve Garvey, Gil Hodges, Eric Karros, Jeff Kent, Davey Lopes, Pee Wee Reese, Jackie Robinson, Bill Russell, Steve Sax, Maury Wills
Outfielders (8): Dusty Baker, Willie Davis, Carl Furillo, Babe Herman, Manny Mota, Gary Sheffield, Duke Snider, Zack Wheat
Pitchers (14): Don Drysdale, Carl Erskine, Eric Gagne, Burleigh Grimes, Orel Hershiser, Sandy Koufax, Clem Labine, Don Newcombe, Claude Osteen, Ron Perranoski, Larry Sherry, Don Sutton, Fernando Valenzuela, Dazzy Vance
MY LINEUPS
vs. LHP
1. Davey Lopes (2B)
2. Gary Sheffield (RF)
3. Duke Snider (CF)
4. Dusty Baker (LF)
5. Roy Campanella (C)
6. Jackie Robinson (SS)
7. Steve Garvey (1B)
8. Ron Cey (3B)
vs. RHP
1. Maury Wills (SS)
2. Babe Herman (RF)
3. Snider (CF)
4. Campanella (C)
5. Zack Wheat (LF)
6. J.Robinson (2B)
7. Dolph Camilli (1B)
8. Cey (3B)
Bench:Garvey/Camilli, Lopes/Wills, Baker/Wheat, Sheffield/Herman, Johnny Roseboro, Mike Piazza, Pee Wee Reese
Rotation
1. Sandy Koufax
2. Orel Hershiser
3. Don Drysdale
4. Dazzy Vance
5. Don Newcombe
Bullpen
Claude Osteen
Ron Perranoski
Burleigh Grimes
Clem Labine
Closer
Eric Gagne
On the Farm:Billy Cox, Willie Davis, Carl Furillo, Gil Hodges, Eric Karros, Jeff Kent, Manny Mota, Bill Russell, Steve Sax, Norm Sherry, Steve Yeager, Fernando Valenzuela, Larry Sherry, Don Sutton, Carl Erskine
Five Questions…
- Do you think Mike Marshall has an opinion as to why he isn’t on this team?
- Will Fernando Mania take over L.A. at some point?
- Is anyone else looking forward to Mike Piazza vs. any version of Roger Clemens in the game?
- Sure they are fast but are either Maury Wills or Davey Lopes the best option at the top of the lineup or is there someone else more worthy on the club?
- How much better would this team be if Campanella or Robinson were evaluated including their Negro League playing days?
PITTSBURGH PIRATES (1882-2008, 5 World Championships, 9 Pennants, 14 Playoff Appearances)
GENERAL MANAGER: Curt Schilling , Major League Pitcher (also a Seamheads Historical League Roster member)
40-Man Roster
Catchers (3): Jason Kendall, Tony Pena, Manny Sanguillen
Infielders (9): Bobby Bonilla, George Grantham, Dick Groat, Richie Hebner, Bill Mazeroski, Willie Stargell, Gus Suhr, Pie Traynor, Arky Vaughan, Honus Wagner
Outfielders (9): Barry Bonds, Max Carey, Roberto Clemente, Brian Giles, Ralph Kiner, Dave Parker, Andy Van Slyke, Lloyd Waner, Paul Waner
Pitchers (18): Babe Adams, Howie Camnitz, John Candelaria, Wilbur Cooper, Doug Drabek, Roy Face, Bob Friend, Dave Giusti, Ramon Hernandez, Ray Kremer, Sam Leever, Ed Morris, Deacon Phillippe, Rip Sewell, Jesse Tannehill, Kent Tekulve, Bob Veale, Vic Willis
MY LINEUPS
vs. LHP
1. Honus Wagner (SS)
2. Pie Traynor (3B)
3. Barry Bonds (LF)
4. Willie Stargell (1B)
5. Roberto Clemente (RF)
6. Max Carey (CF)
7. George Grantham (2B)
8. Tony Pena
vs. RHP
1. Wagner (SS)
2. Grantham (2B)
3. Bonds (LF)
4. Stargell (1B)
5. Clemente (RF)
6. Richie Hebner (3B)
7. Andy Van Slyke (CF)
8. Pena (C)
Bench:Traynor/Hebner, Van Slyke/Carey, Jason Kendall, Gus Suhr, Arky Vaughan, Ralph Kiner, Paul Waner
Rotation
1. Jesse Tannehill
2. Ed Morris
3. Deacon Phillippe
4. Sam Leever
5. Babe Adams
Bullpen
Ramon Hernandez
Kent Tekulve
Wilbur Cooper
Bob Veale
Closer
Roy Face
On the Farm:John Candelaria, Howie Camnitz, Doug Drabek, Bob Friend, Dave Giusti, Ray Kremer, Rip Sewell, Vic Willis, Manny Sanguillen, Lloyd Waner, Dave Parker, Dick Groat, Bobby Bonilla, Brian Giles, Bill Mazeroski
Five Questions…
- Will the starting pitching depth be what gives the Pirates the edge?
- Pittsburgh Bonds or San Francisco Bonds?
- Who is the best choice behind the plate?
- How much playing time does Arky Vaughan get?
- Does Bonds take time in center to give Ralph Kiner playing time and at what cost defensively?
ST. LOUIS CARDINALS (1882-2008, 10 World Championships, 21 Pennants, 26 Playoff Appearances)
GENERAL MANAGER: Dustin Mattison , “The Birdhouse” Writer/Blogger
40-Man Roster
Catchers (2): Walker Cooper, Ted Simmons
Infielders (12): Jim Bottomley, Ken Boyer, Frankie Frisch, Rogers Hornsby, Pepper Martin, Mark McGwire, Johnny Mize, Albert Pujols, Edgar Renteria, Red Schoendienst, Ozzie Smith, Garry Templeton, Joe Torre
Outfielders (5): Lou Brock, Jim Edmonds, Willie McGee, Stan Musial, Enos Slaughter
Pitchers (20): Al Brazle, Harry Brecheen, Ernie Broglio, Steve Carlton, Chris Carpenter, Mort Cooper, Dizzy Dean, Dennis Eckersley, Bob Gibson, Jesse Haines, Joe Hoerner, Jason Isringhausen, Jim Kaat, Howie Pollet, Slim Sallee, Lee Smith, Bruce Sutter, John Tudor, Todd Worrell, Cy Young
MY LINEUPS
vs. LHP
1. Lou Brock (LF)
2. Rogers Hornsby (3B)
3. Albert Pujols (1B)
4. Stan Musial (RF)
5. Willie McGee (CF)
6. Frankie Frisch (2B)
7. Walker Cooper (C)
8. Ozzie Smith (SS)
vs. RHP
1. Brock (LF)
2. Hornsby (3B)
3. Pujols (1B)
4. Musial (RF)
5. Ted Simmons (C)
6. Frisch (2B)
7. Jim Edmonds (CF)
8. O.Smith (SS)
Bench:Cooper/Simmons, McGee/Edmonds, Johnny Mize, Red Schoendienst, Ken Boyer, Garry Templeton, Enos Slaughter
Rotation
1. Bob Gibson
2. Cy Young
3. Dizzy Dean
4. Slim Sallee
5. Steve Carlton
Bullpen
Bruce Sutter
John Tudor
Jesse Haines
Dennis Eckersley
Closer
Lee Smith
On the Farm:Jim Bottomley, Pepper Martin, Mark McGwire, Edgar Renteria, Joe Torre, Al Brazle, Harry Brecheen, Joe Hoerner, Jim Kaat, Howie Pollet, Ernie Broglio, Chris Carpenter, Mort Cooper, Jason Isringhausen, Todd Worrell
Five Questions…
- With so many choices, do the Cardinals pick the right closer?
- Behind Pujols, Mize and Bottomley, does Mark McGwire ever see the light of day?
- In center, is a platoon better or should one player take the job?
- Is Ozzie Smith a lock for the Gold Glove?
- Does this team have the most player/managers on the roster?
With the rosters recapped, here is the prediction:
1. Pirates
2. Cardinals3. Reds
4. Dodgers
Division MVP: Joe Morgan, RedsDivision Cy Young: Ed Morris, Pirates
I am curious why you have Frank Robinson in LF and Foster in RF on the Reds team. Robinson did play more LF while in Cincinnati, but there were years when he played almost exclusively in RF there, and for his career he played more RF. And Foster was almost exclusively a left fielder for most of his career. During his big years with the Reds, he played LF most of the time.
To my knowledge, Robinson was considered a good right fielder. Was Foster considered superior there?
Those Pirates are loaded- I was surprised to see Andy Van Slyke in the starting lineup ahead of Waner, but sure enough, he had some monster years. Waner and Kiner have to get into the lineup somehow, not to mention Arky Vaughn.
Bob wrote: “To my knowledge, Robinson was considered a good right fielder. Was Foster considered superior there?”
According to the simulation, Robinson has a much better rating in right field than Foster (18 vs. 8), with a slightly better arm (15 vs. 13), and the same range (12 each).
The owner hasn’t confirmed his starting lineups yet, but here’s what the simulation has with some tweaking by me:
Vs. RHP
1. Roush (CF)
2. Rose (3B)
3. Morgan (2B)
4. Robinson (RF)
5. Kluszewski (1B)
6. Bench (C)
7. Crawford (LF)
8. Larkin (SS)
Vs. LHP
1. Roush (CF)
2. Rose (3B)
3. Morgan (2B)
4. Mitchell (LF)
5. Robinson (RF)
6. Perez (1B)
7. Bench (C)
8. Larkin (SS)
Bench should probably be higher in the order and you’ll notice that Kevin Mitchell is starting over George Foster. Foster was with Cincinnati much longer, but Mitchell’s numbers with the Reds were pretty impressive, so he gets the nod.
Out of curiosity, how would you compose the lineup? I’d love to get multiple opinions from our readers and I’m anxious to see how all of you would construct these lineups if given the chance.
These lineups aren’t easy to come up with and the Robinson/Foster thing was just a miss on my part. Oops! Thankfully, I’m not in control of deciding who actually had to play… I never could do it with these rosters!