Sam Smith exclusive: New book with Phil Jackson, Jordan's feuds with Pippen & Barkley, and more

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Sam Smith exclusive: New book with Phil Jackson, Jordan's feuds with Pippen & Barkley, and more

Stephen Beslic · Basketball Network

Wed, Jan 14, 2026 ·

17 min read

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On one side, there's Sam Smith , a best-selling author with firsthand insight into the iconic Chicago Bulls dynasty of the 1990s. On the other, Phil Jackson , a legendary coach and an indispensable part of those same Bulls teams.

Combine the two, and you have an inexhaustible source of basketball stories — but not just about Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen and the rest of the Bulls.

That's exactly what their latest project, " Masters of the Game: A Conversational History of the NBA in 75 Legendary Players ," embodies. And we had the chance to talk to Sam about it.

As a fan of the NBA, thank you so much for publishing this book. It really encapsulates what the history of the league is all about — the superstars. Was that your intention when you first came up with the idea?

Sam:The books I've done, for the most part, aren't planned because I'm primarily still a daily journalist and write books when something comes along that interests me. I don't set out to be a historian or biographer.

" The Jordan Rules " was after I'd been the Bulls beat writer a few years for The Chicago Tribune . Friends would ask me what it was like, what Jordan was like, and so starting the 1990–91 season, when the Bulls weren't favored by anyone to win a title, I decided it would be fun to write a diary of a season, something like David Halberstam did with the Portland Trail Blazers in "Breaks of the Game , " which I patterned "The Jordan Rules" after. And I just happened to be in the middle of this amazing championship season of characters, with the guy becoming one of the most famous people in the world.

I'd met Phil Jackson when I was writing a minor league basketball story before he came to the Bulls. I'd watched him play many times as a Knicks fan growing up in Brooklyn . So he becomes Bulls coach and I'm the Bulls writer, and I maintained a friendship, if not exceedingly close, with him after he left Chicago. Gave me a good excuse to get to LA out of Chicago in winter.

So after Phil retired from coaching, when the Bulls traveled to LA, I'd meet him for lunch, usually once a year. During the 1999 NBA lockout, I spent a few days with him at his place in Montana. I'm interested in NBA history and wrote a book a few years back, " Hard Labor , " about the infancy of the league in the 1960s and 1970s, focusing on the merger and free agency with amazing stories of the Lakers ' plane crash, the boycott of the 1964 All-Star Game, Wilt and Russell barnstorming in summers to play one another in pickup games.

Working on it, I'd done the last interviews with John Havlicek and Wes Unseld and decided I better collect some of these NBA stories from that era lest they disappear as the guys passed. So, one lunch with Phil around the time of the pandemic, I was telling him what I was working on and, never having given it a thought or that he'd ever be interested since we never did anything together, I blurted out if he wanted to do it with me. To my surprise and delight, he said yes.

I wasn't sure it was even a book. But I thought it would be cool to have a reason to go hang out in Montana with Phil. So I did a few times for stays of three or four days and turned on the tape recorder and we just talked, and if you know Phil, there are a lot of digressions, which I liked more than another factual history, making it sort of a casual compendium of experience, observation, and remembrance.

So I had these conversations and hadn't done anything with them and then finally in the summer of 2024, I decided I better sit down and write something.

This book is, in a sense, an antidote to the modern, hot-take-dominated NBA media. It feels refreshing just to hear stories about these players, without focusing on comparing them. The concept of the book sounds informal, but was this one rule you guys agreed on when chopping it up — not to allow yourself to start the debates and comparisons?

Sam: We wanted to talk about the league's history, and also what got me thinking about it, other than the interviews from "Hard Labor , " was the 75th anniversary list.

I got to thinking I'd grown up in Brooklyn and was a regular at Madison Square Garden since the late 1950s and then covered the NBA and still do and had seen every one of the Top 75 play in person other than George Mikan and talked to every one, including Mikan, at one time or another. I figured, how many people could say that?

I mentioned that to Phil in noting he'd coached or played against most, so we decided to use that as the template for a book. So I took out the NBA's list and we'd sit down at his kitchen table or at a diner for lunch and I'd say, "Bob Cousy," and it was a free association/improv. It was more what we thought of when that name was mentioned, instead of a record of that player.

I wrote an introduction for each player for the casual fan who might not know enough about them, but then it was the reader being the fly on the wall if they walked in and we were talking about them. And since it was 75 players, we wanted to keep it short and readable, like a basketball snack. You could pick out a player or two, read about them, and then put it down and come back to it some other time. It probably also fit the modern reading habit to some extent, as readers tend in this era to digest in smaller chunks.

It was set up as a combination of the factual history and then the reaction and digressions, which also, I felt, gave a look at Phil that many never see, but how his friends know him.

You've been around the NBA for a while, developing relationships and gathering information about the league's biggest legends. But I'm sure Phil shared some stories you've never heard before about some of these guys. Are there any that took you off guard?

Sam:Obviously, you know the most about the people you are closest to. I loved Phil's story of the real reason for the Dave DeBusschere trade that made the Knicks a champion, the refusal of Walt Bellamy to back his teammates in that legendary fight at Georgia Tech, which I was watching at home on TV. And how Red Holzman declared right then the end of the Bellamy/Willis Reed combination.

I also loved some of Phil's insights with Shaq. We've all known the playful side of Shaq, but it was interesting hearing about his desires to please as well as the backstory of the Shaq/Kobe breakup, and just so many fun anecdotes with Jerry Lucas, Dave Cowens. Phil also had some great stories about New York with Woody Allen, Zero Mostel.

Which player made Jackson's eyes light up the most during your conversations? Who is the guy you liked to talk about the most?

Sam:As a Knicks fan growing up, I loved the DeBusschere, Reed, Frazier, Lucas stories that Phil could relate so intimately since he remained close with all.

There was a sadness when we talked about the Bulls because of the Jordan and Pippen breakup. Phil has a softer spot for Scottie than anyone, and I could tell that still hurt him, as well.

I could tell Phil had fierce rivalries with some players like Oscar Robertson and Jerry West and at times he was pulling his punches. It was more difficult with some of the modern players because the game has changed so much and there was some of that old-timer stuff with us about the relaxation of the rules.

You went pretty deep with each player — did these conversations with Phil change your perception of anyone from the list?

Sam:I didn't know the players like Phil did, but that also was an advantage of seeing them from the colleague/competitor side as well as the outsider/interviewer.

Kareem was always difficult for media to deal with, like Bill Russell, they being some of the players who fought back the most against the segregation and bias in their times. I'd interview Kareem at times, but he'd never open up. Phil wasn't close with him, as I doubt many players ever were. But they did spend time together.

I saw a vulnerability in Kareem with some of the things talked about, like his coaching disappointments, and was shocked to hear how he feared shooting those late free throws even as he was so successful, and that story about his nerves after the famous Laimbeer foul in the 1988 Finals.

Who do you think is the most misunderstood guy out of the 75 you talked about?

Sam:Probably Rick Barry. I wrote about Rick a lot in "Hard Labor . " He's generally rated as these things go, Top 15 or 20, but the guy could do everything, a dead-eye shooter, passer, rebounder who was the (sad) face of the ABA-NBA wars, jumping back and forth among teams. His talents were Top 10 all-time.

Rick was, as they'd say, not one to suffer fools. And he'd let people know, but less known is he was so anxious to get back to the NBA after several ill-advised adventures in the ABA that when the NBA players — Havlicek, Bill Bradley, Oscar among them — went to testify before Congress about antitrust and free agency, Rick took the opposing side because he saw it as a way back to the NBA around the courts that were enforcing his contracts. It was less that players didn't like him than he'd picked the other side, which was understandable from his viewpoint to save his career.

Were there instances from a player's career that you realized, while looking back on it, were misinterpreted?

Sam:I think sometimes Jason Kidd was viewed as a mercenary, but it was interesting to me how highly Phil rated him above the greatest point guards of the game, like Isiah, Stockton, Nash, Chris Paul , that if he wanted to win a game, he'd want Kidd above almost any.

There also was some from another direction with Carmelo Anthony . Phil didn't dislike Carmelo, and actually wanted, when he was Knicks president, to get Carmelo to a contending team . He admired Carmelo's talent and felt if he were in the right spot, a second or third option, he could be a champion, as he was at Syracuse, where teammates came through bigger in the championship game. And Phil had a rebuilding project with those Knicks.

But Carmelo liked his numbers, as George Karl told Phil, and wanted to stay even as it was being made clear they were not going to be contending. Phil never expressed bitterness about the New York executive experience, but it did seem there could have been a better ending for both he and Carmelo.

What about the most underrated player?

Sam:Probably Alex English, who didn't make the list, and who we both believed should have. A remarkable and efficient scorer who happened to play mostly for a Denver team that ran up scores in an era rewarding defense and so never made much playoff noise.

From that list, maybe underrated or unknown was Paul Arizin, a 50s NBA scoring and shooting pioneer who popularized the jump shot and was a top athlete. I admired what those players went through to play and loved the story of Arizin not moving to San Francisco when his Philadelphia Warriors relocated because he had a good off-court job — needed in those days — but played minor league basketball for years afterward. That's the love of the game.

Probably also Lenny Wilkens, who was such a clever ball handler and shooter, more known for his coaching.

What about the different eras? I'm sure talking about the guys from the '60s or the '70s was a lot different than talking about the guys from the modern eras. How do you think the pressures and culture of today's NBA compare to the past?

Sam:Basketball obviously is big business now, players calling themselves a brand and the economics unimaginable. Why I think we loved those eras so much was the innocence and purity of the game. Everyone played all the time, winning mattered, rivalries endured, fights were serious. But quickly forgotten.

We hardly blame today's players as societies evolve and you react and endure to the current conditions, and we certainly agree today's players are immense talents. But we do reject the notion that players from those eras couldn't compete today. As I've noted, Jokic and Doncic , two of the best, look more like guys from the '70s.

You and Phil, naturally, also talked about Michael Jordan. Having seen his greatness firsthand as one of the guys who covered his career closely, what do you think about how Jordan is perceived today?

Sam:It's just remarkable to me the way this truly fun-to-be-around and sharp kid who liked to just play ball has become such a worldwide icon, one of the most celebrated people in the world, someone who leaves others speechless. And when you knew him as we did, you were struck more by the humanity and playfulness than the idolatry.

What is the biggest misconception about Jordan?

Sam:That he's not approachable. Obviously, someone in his position who is viewed as he is and at his status in life has to be cautious and careful. But he's always been much more normal and familiar than you'd believe.

The feud between him and Scottie Pippen still hasn't been resolved. I know you said Michael was hurt by Scottie's words — do you think the two can ever reconcile?

Sam:No. Scottie has alienated an awful lot of people for no reasons I still can figure, and he's really taken after Michael at times, even when at his Hall of Fame speech — and that was seeing Michael as he is with his friends — Scottie was the only teammate Michael recognized.

Phil joked at one point in our talks that, unlike his Knicks, who still have these regular Zoom sessions, he didn't see it with the '90s Bulls.

Of everyone I've talked to about Scottie, other than maybe Horace Grant, who remains closest with him, Phil has been the most sympathetic toward Scottie, insisting in the book how it's been more bad advice and Scottie isn't like that. But Michael, as we've seen with Barkley, doesn't get over things quickly.

One thing about Scottie I noted, and that I understand, his anger at some level is because he had so many incidents that would have derailed many careers — seventh game migraine, refusing to enter a playoff game — it's that nature that has enabled him to prosper when many others would have sunk into depression or oblivion.

Having been around the Bulls during the 90s, what was their relationship like? Did you see signs of potential fallout while they were teammates?

Sam:Michael wasn't close with his teammates because he was older and quickly becoming such a basketball and commercial celebrity. Michael craved the action, the little (and big) gambling games we've heard so much about that even drove guys crazy with the Dream Team. So he wasn't hanging out with his wild, single kid teammates who were running around (he was married) and older teammates like Paxson and Cartwright with families.

And then, as I often outlined in "The Jordan Rules , " he grew frustrated with the slow (not unexpected to the rest of us) development of his young teammates at a time he was being compared with Magic, Bird and Isiah. So, as he said in The Last Dance, he was tough on teammates, but there also was a camaraderie with Phil keeping them together.

Was Phil surprised by how things played out between Michael and Scottie?

Sam:He was more saddened than anything because he really liked both and has tried to maintain relationships with them.

What about Jordan and Charles Barkley? We know the story about why their friendship ended – did you ever talk to Michael about it? Do you think they will ever reconcile?

Sam:My relationship, understandably, with Jordan changed after the publication of "The Jordan Rules" in late 1991, and two subsequent books I wrote about Jordan. Though the third, " There is No Next , " an oral history about his brilliance, is least known.

I personally doubt Jordan ever read "The Jordan Rules , " but he'd heard excerpts (and I, too, get to say "out of context" at times) and was under siege at times. Me, too, but that was more my job. I always credited Jordan for, despite being unhappy with the book, he never treated me unprofessionally. He always had great respect for the media.

But there was an unspoken understanding of no more casual conversation. So I never pursued such questions.

I'd see him occasionally when he owned the Charlotte Hornets , and he'd joke with me that I sold out as I write for the Bulls website now. But not much more than that. As I'd tell people, he's a billionaire and I'm still doing the same thing. So he did OK.

Jordan saw a lot of media people back in the 80s as supporters, and so I believe he felt a betrayal when I wrote the book. Personal loyalty is huge for him, which is why he keeps his groups small and you never see him around the NBA. He considered Barkley one of those insiders, and when Barkley, in his media role, criticized Jordan as an owner, that put Barkley outside the inner circle. There's usually no way back .

Who is one guy you wanted to talk about in the book, but he wasn't on the NBA's Top 75 list?

Sam:Alex English, as I mentioned. Bob Lanier, a great center who was often close, but his teams never quite good enough. I was one of the voters and didn't include Dwight Howard , whom many mention as an omission for his great run of defense.

I drew a distinction between Top 75 and Hall of Fame. Dwight's the latter, and that is significant. It's no slight to be in the Hall of Fame. But he often behaved too much like a fool because I viewed that Top 75 as a Mt. Rushmore of sorts. My ballot included Bob Davies, who even was a model for Bob Cousy, Davies a champion with the old Rochester Royals as the first of the creative guards.

The NBA has been doing these lists every 25 years and he was on that first one and didn't get carried forward; I believe the only one. I also think that's why there actually were 76 when the list came out, because the NBA didn't want to leave off one from the Top 50.

If readers take away one key idea about what makes a player "legendary" — outside of the numbers, accolades, etc. — what would you hope it is?

Sam:It's the impact on the game, that among all these talented players, yes, you remember him for what he did or accomplished or the way he played. I understand that we measure now by numbers and championships, but there's that it factor, the sort of know it when you see it, and that's what a legend is about, less what you can record than appreciate.

Check out " Masters of the Game: A Conversational History of the NBA in 75 Legendary Players ." Sam Smith teamed up with Phil Jackson to bring you stories, laughs and insights from the Top 75 players in NBA history in a format that feels like sitting down with the legends themselves.

This story was originally published by Basketball Network on Jan 14, 2026, where it first appeared in the Latest News section. Add Basketball Network as a Preferred Source by clicking here.

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