The Kaline: Establishing a Mendoza Line For Hall of Famers

Comments

1. Smitty says:

   August 17, 2010 at 3:21 pm

   Well done piece – That exposes Mazeroski even more.

2. SteveP says:

   August 17, 2010 at 3:22 pm

   Fun, but the game has changed a lot. Even if such statistical thresholds weren’t banned, you’d still really have a problem with the era level changes in batting averages, strikeouts and power.

   (also Buddy Bell =\ C)

3. Tom Zocco says:

   August 17, 2010 at 5:04 pm

   @SteveP –

   Al Kaline spent his final season with the Detroit Tigers as a designated hitter.

   Without the DH, Kaline probably would not have reached 3000 hits. Perhaps, his

   standard should be lowered.

4. Brian Wood says:

   August 18, 2010 at 9:35 pm

   Nice concept, though I agree that more definition could be made–not only by era, but by position. The fact 62% were middle infielders makes this case.

5. Greg Sansone says:

   August 22, 2010 at 9:34 am

   Kaline happens to be my favorite player of all time, and I come from Pittsburgh so I like the comment about exposing Maz. He doesn’t belong anywhere near the hall. The comment about changing the Kaline standard, yes he did spend that year as a DH, and maybe you consider two different standards, one pre DH and one post DH, but his numbers by and large were set into place by then, especially his career averages. If anything, yes he would have come up about 140 hits short of 3000, but the standard that is being established is about avg, obp, and slugging, and that last year only HURT those numbers. Those numbers all would have been higher had it not been for his slash line of .262/.337/.389. WIthout those, his career slash line would have been .300/.380/.482. Like i said, largely set in stone already, the numbers wouldn’t have changed much.

   Do I think that his 3000 hits helped his case greatly, yes I do, but he also was a Stud Right Fielder, had 400 homeruns (actually, 399, but who’s counting) had 100 more outfield assists than errors.

   And that is the main reason I disagree with this article. A lot of people get into the hall for different reasons. Ozzie Smith is there because he was the best defensive shortstop ever. Defense is a position that is vital to the game. If you can’t play defense but can mash, you end up as David Ortiz, or Edgar Martinez. Maybe you were one hell of a hitter, but you only play half of the game. At least defensive wizards still bat, and contribute.

   Yes, there should be a standard. But positions (middle infielders shouldn’t have to get to the 500 homerun plateau, catchers certainly don’t need 3000 hits) should have different standards. Maybe Middle infielders should need 6 gold gloves, 2250 hits, and a .280 average just to even qualify for the ballot. Maybe 350 homeruns or a career .300 average for corner players just to get to the ballot. Im not sure what it should be, but I for one don’t want baseball to turn into the NFL, where if you made the pro bowl once or twice you get in.

6. mikkyld says:

   August 23, 2010 at 9:20 am

   The problem with this approach is that position does matter and defense does matter and, yes, even counting stats do matter.

   For example, the slickest SS of all time may not have hit as well as Al but he certainly belongs in the HoF.

   Until the Hall gets wise and has separate wings – at least one for leaders and record holders and the other for the best players of all time – the issue of counting stats will always be problematic. 3000 hits says Brock belongs, certainly not his offensive numbers.

   A wing for best hitters – there’s Rose for hits and Bonds for HR and the leaders in all those stats – and one for pitchers – there’s the most wins etc etc – would stand separate from the one that says these are MLB’s all time great players. No mazeroski or jim rice or andre dawson or Brock need apply (and maybe not Kaline either), but the Wizard should still be there. Just my $.02

7. Ron says:

   October 13, 2010 at 11:45 am

   I’m not sure how to take this story of the Ka-Line mendoza line for HOF’ers.Al Kaline was a Great Player -Period. From the era he played, I would take him over anyone not named Aaron, Mantle, or Mays. He played his career in the second deadball era and led the American League in batting average for the 1960’s. If not for Kaline’s seemingly endless injuries year in-year out, starting in 1959, he would most certainly would have eclipsed 3,000 hits by 300-400, and had well over 400 home runs along with 200 more rbi and runs scored, well before his 1974 season as a DH. Only Mantle with over 600 games lost from injuries had more games lost than Kaline’s 400 to injuries. (1961 was the last year Kaline played in over 150 games). Kaline was the consummate professional hitter, and in-game situational hitter with great plate discipline, a Chess Master playing checkers-baseball. and imo, the most Accurate of all outfield throwing arms past or present.