Should USWNT prioritize development over results ahead of World Cup? | Full Time Podcast
After a 1-0 defeat to Japan, U.S. womens national team head coach Emma Hayes confessed that she is prioritizing development over results right now. So, is that the right move for the team 14 months out from the next World Cup? On this episode of Full Time, host Jillian Sakovits is joined by The Athletics Tamerra Griffin to unpack the lessons learned from a soggy night in Seattle, Wash., at Lumen Field, where Hayes made 11 changes to her starting XI. What did we learn about the USWNTs depth and second-string lineup? How much pressure is on the third and final friendly against Japan? PLUS: Producer Theo checks in from a momentous night at Wembley Stadium and Englands World Cup qualifier against Spain, as well as the latest on which teams have already qualified for the 2027 World Cup in Brazil. ------------ #nwsl #uswnt #worldcup ------------ Subscribe to the Full Time newsletter to get all the latest women's soccer news straight to your inbox every Tuesday: Get in touch: fulltime@theathletic.com Follow on Instagram and TikTok: @tafulltime Catch the full episodes of Full Time right here
Video Transcript
Hello.
Hello, everybody.
Welcome back to Full Time.
It's presented by Amazon Prime.
Jillian Sakovitz here with you, fresh off of the Japan defeating the US Women's National Team one-nil on Tuesday night at a very soggy Lumen Field in Seattle.
And as many predicted, we saw quite a different lineup from Emma Hayes making 11 changes to the starting 11 that had beaten Japan just three days earlier.
We wonder, is Hayes right to be prioritizing development over results in this three-game set against Japan here in the middle game?
What do we make of a second defeat to Japan in 14 months?
And just how much pressure is now on this final and third game as the series goes to Colorado on Friday night?
And to get into all that with me live from Seattle, Washington, is Tamara Griffin.
Hi, Tamara.
Hey, Jill.
How's it going?
Very good.
So we got you before you get back on your flight home.
Mm-hmm.
how's Seattle?
You know, I would be inclined in any other case to complain about how wet it's been, how chilly, how gray.
Ironically, as I'm saying this, the sun is breaking through for the first time since I arrived yesterday morning.
But the thing is, Jill, I really, really like Seattle, and up until I got this assignment to travel for this game, I didn't realize how long it had been since I was last here.
Three years, which considering that I just live in California feels like a very long time.
So I feel like I'm in that place where because I've been so happy to be back and because I've missed the city so much, I don't even care about the weather.
It's such a good city.
I'm just like, bring it on.
Give me all of the multi-directional wind gusts.
I'm like, the toes of my sneakers were soaked when I went on like a 10-minute walk yesterday.
I don't care, because Seattle, like you said, is such a great city that this is just part of the experience.
So the weather's great.
Question.
and for any of our listeners, add this to your list.
Did you go to The Pink Door?
I did not.
I didn't have time, and I knew that this question was gonna come on this pod, and- Yeah I've been cringing ever since.
Jill, I got so close that I was like- That's okay looking at the menu.
I actually took a screenshot of something that I found very funny because there's a section in the menu where you can get like a side of, I think truffle No, they're like rosemary.
Either truffle or rosemary fries, I can't remember.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
But they come with an aioli, and on the menu in parentheses it says, "No, we don't have ketchup."
Which I thought- Ooh was just the funniest thing to put on the menu.
Yeah.
So I actually took a screenshot of that because period.
Aioli over ketchup.
If you know, you know, for your fries.
Okay.
All to say- A little sass too I've been so busy that I did not make it to- But you're working The Pink Door.
You're working.
you're working because you're following the US Women's National Team.
Uh- I am.
Yeah.
Which, which, which I wanna get into.
Was it as wet and soggy as it looked?
Can I tell you, all that was going through my mind was like, hell yeah to all these fans because it's a midweek match in Seattle, and there's such excellent soccer culture- in that city.
So I knew they'd show up.
But the fact that Lumen Field got a record-breaking crowd of 36,120 fans, which surpassed Megan Rapinoe's- final game of, of 34,000-ish, which was the previous record, made me just love the city so very much and so happy to see a national team, game return there.
But then also wonder, like if you were getting a beautiful night in Seattle, like w- what that atmosphere could've looked like.
Totally.
What more could've been.
Yeah.
Walking through Lumen Field to go to the press box and seeing pe- Like, there was a certain level of comfort with which girls, little girls who looked like they were like seven were just like casually posted up on like the concrete floor inside Lumen- ahead of the game, just like eating their, you know, chicken tenders and french fries and stuff with their ponchos.
There was just like an ease to all of that that just made it so clear, like these people are built for this moment.
Like- They are rough and tough- It's, yeah Pacific Northwest people.
Completely.
And I just had so much respect.
Like, the people posted up outside the stadium selling their overpriced ponchos.
Like, I'm all for the hustle.
I don't think I saw a single non-ponchoed person in the stands.
And of course, the winners in all of this strategically were the ones who were like tucked up on like the, the side opposite from the press box, I guess, underneath the overhang because they were completely dry the entire time.
So I really applauded the, the, like determination, the effort that everyone who still came out Because the thing is, honestly, to me, more problematic than the rain was the temperature.
It was chilly on top of it being rainy.
I could feel it.
Yes.
Yeah.
And to m- If I was not in like the warmth of a press box, that would've been the thing that broke me more than the rain, if I'm being completely honest.
It's a great press box.
Mm-hmm.
My favorite part is it has Starbucks.
Yes.
It's so Seattle.
Uh- It's so good.
Um- Espresso, like yes, all of that.
Yes.
It, it is so unbelievably lovely.
Okay, before we get into like an actual conversation- All right.
around the US Women's National Team, whenever I think about my time in covering soccer at Lumen Field, it brings me back to, you mentioned the people selling ponchos.
It brings me back to, this would have been 2019, the Seattle Sounders MLS team won MLS Cup- on a, a dreary winter evening in, in December.
And- Ooh, December to just show sometimes- Yes where soccer is at in this country and the humbling moments that we all need, there were hats, and I have a picture of it, and to this day it is the purchase I regret not making that said Seattle Sounders 2019 World Cup Champions.
And I am just so sad that I didn't purchase- World Cup that hat.
So I just wonder like, yeah, I think it sounds like the swag, has upped itself a- around Lumen Field.
But that person, if I coulda had that hat, it just would've been, it would've been historic really, uh- I mean- for me maybe someone who listens to this pod knows a guy who knows a guy.
It might not be too lateJust damn.
Spend the 10 bucks, Jill.
Get, get the typoed hat.
All right, moving on, on today's show- Life lessons on Fullten yeah, life lessons.
we bring in our podcast producer, Theo Lloyd-Hughes.
Where are you at, Theo?
Hey, hey.
Can you hear me?
Yes.
Oh, we hear you loud and clear and crisp.
Loud and clear.
yeah, what a time in Lumen.
I'm very jealous, Tamar.
It looked like a bit of a classic.
I did like, obviously not being there, I did like where they put the studio for the broadcast on TNT.
That's really cool.
So nice, right?
Right.
The way you The overhang, you could see- Yeah the kind of like the stadium and the- Big time.
Yeah, that really was a big time studio spot.
'cause usually I feel like they're on the- Perfect place for Crystal Dunn to make her foray into her broadcasting era.
And Crystal Dunn playing the flute.
The Was it- The flutist, like- Was it ABBA?
Yes.
I think it was an ABBA It was an ABBA song, wasn't it?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Lot to love about that.
So even- What a Renaissance woman even for us mere mortals at home, it was a treat.
Moving on, to like these really big questions, about development and rotation, et cetera, et cetera.
Before we dive into the nitty-gritty, Tamar, you obviously were, the we're in the post-game.
Theo, we've, we've listened in, midweek now, ahead of this three- third game.
How do you think Emma Hayes is feeling?
Ooh, like right now?
Mm-hmm.
In between games two and three?
I think there's gotta be a part of her brain that is really, really, really into this moment.
Like- Wow I think that she's appreciating the texture, and there was, there was something that she said in her post-game press conference after the one-nil loss on Tuesday night about basically having to like go back to the drawing board a little bit in preparation for the third game.
And between everything that she said about not prioritizing results at the expense of development, everything that she said about the level of respect that she has for Japan, probably even more so now that she, in her tenure as US Women's National Team head coach, has now lost to them twice, and under two different Japanese managers, by the way, which I think adds another layer to this, personally.
I think that she is appreciating the opportunity to experience these things in this, like, contained three-match series.
And I don't know, maybe this is a little bit of me putting myself in her shoes, but this has just gotta make the job more challenging in all the best ways than if, for example, the US had been winning handily the first two legs of this.
So I think that she's As much as she hates losing, as much as this entire program hates nothing more than to lose, I think that there's a part of her that is appreciating what's happening right now because it's coming as a result of I think as long as Emma Hayes can say that the group is progressing and developing, she's not gonna be disappointed ultimately.
Theo, you said, "Wow."
W- what, what was your reaction?
I mean, it's just interesting to be like, oh, Emma Hayes is having a great time.
They just lost the game.
It's just like- I didn't mean it like that.
It was just kind of a funny way to put it.
But I don't disagree in that, you know, she has gone out of her way, especially in 2025, talking about development, experimenting, not only for the 2027 World Cup, but she's mentioned the 2028 Olympics.
Oh.
She's even mentioned the 2031 World Cup.
So La- you know, Tuesday night's game, the one-nil defeat with Mai Kamano scoring the only goal for Japan, was about exposing, whether they like it or not, players who are on that development plan, and throwing them- Mm-hmm into the fire.
And I'm sure it does hurt to lose, but in some ways Emma Hayes is probably like, "Hey, this is my concrete evidence that X player needs to work on Y- Right ability," right?
You know, I think we s- before the game spoke a lot about Ali Sentnor, probably one of the players right in the cauldron of having to figure out where she fits on this national team, being played as the center forward, giving up the ball in midfield that ends up turning into the game-losing goal.
Misses two shots in the box from close range in the second half as well.
You know, these are the types of moments where a 22-year-old forward, who everyone believes has all the technical gifts, can they step up against top o- opposition?
Right now, you know, Ali Sentnor can't.
That's sort of the facts, and I'm sure to some extent it is maybe satisfying as a manager to give a player that test and for them to fail, and say, "This is where you are.
You gotta keep going."
So yeah, no one likes to lose, but development maybe, this side of development, can be satisfying.
Yeah.
For reference, Emily Sonnet, 115 caps.
The other 10 players with a combined 148 caps.
the next most capped player, 21-year-old Jaedyn Shaw with 34.
I, I think what I found so interesting about this, and Theo you pointed out a, a little bit, is the fact that she wants to see what the speed squad can do.
Yeah.
She wants to see how, how they can break through, how they can be challenged in tough moments, but how do you balance that with also trying to go out and win the game?
You know, making six substitutions in the second half is something that, that did surprise, surprise me a little bit.
'Cause you wanna, you wanna see those players, sure, go get 'em.
Ca- can you, can you be the X factor?
Can you be the X factor?
But also can tho- can those players now battle back?
I, I totally agree, Jill.
I actually think that's the part when I'm maybe wanna be critical of Emma Hayes.
That's the part that actually surprised me is that she did bring in the heavy hitters, Trinity Rodman- Oh Sophia Wilson, Tiana Davidson, uh- Lindsey Heaps who am I forgetting?
Lindsey.
Well, Lindsey Heaps came in the 71st.
Who was the other one at 65th?
Oh.
Giselle.
Giselle, thank you, who j- I mean, what a window for Giselle.
Sudden- She's now in the heavy hitters group, right?
But for the cavalry, I actually think, to your point, Jill, that was the most surprising thing, that Hayes went to the cavalry in a way and said, "I need to try and win this game," rather than sticking with the younger, more experimental group and asking them to dig themselves out of a hole and to work harder as Japan flip, switched that, that f- that back five and got more deep.
And she didn't bring on someone like Michelle CooperShe didn't even turn to Alyssa Thompson, right, who is clearly an A squad player, but still a younger player.
And didn't even dress.
So I would Didn't even dress, right?
For this game.
Yeah.
which means you know Alyssa Thompson's probably gonna play in Colorado.
But I f- yeah, to your point, Jill, I actually think that's maybe the most disappointing thing is that if you're gonna put the B team through the fire, why don't you s- you really make it challenging for them?
Whereas the desperation of those substitutes almost exposes a little bit of, like- you know, "Oh, wait, hold on.
We don't wanna lose the game."
And obviously no one wants to lose the game.
But the, it is a- And- It's a, it's a balance.
It's a balancing act.
Yeah, and tho- those subs, I think you said it, Theo, but, like, for that group to be coming in in the 65th minute, I'm just interested why it wasn't the 75th or, or, or the 80th, and that's not to say obviously I know anything about- Or it's home um- Yeah game management.
but that did- So my interpretation of that was I'm, I thought the same thing.
Yeah.
And I also wondered whether there was an element of challenge for the cavalry that came in to see if they could, with, you know, 25 or so minutes- Turn the game turn the game around.
Right.
But even then, part of me is like, what do you learn if you, y- you're like, "Oh, yeah, the A squad's good."
If they can.
Yeah.
Right.
B- yeah, and especially if you put this same scenario in, like, a tournament, World Cup, like- Yeah uh- Mm-hmm setting because you would never The, that, what she did on Tuesday night is only the kind of thing you do in an international friendly at a time- Mm-hmm like this when you're preparing for a World Cup.
It's not something that you actually do when you're competing in a World Cup.
Yeah.
So all we can do then is grade the B squad off of the minutes, that they did play i- in a one-nil loss to Japan.
So when you look at this B squad, the question has to be who stood out to you the most that, that seems ready for the big moment, and who maybe left you really yearning for more?
I stand by that I don't think Emma Sears is ready to start for the US Women's National Team, but I do think she is a really good option off the bench, and the amount of space she was able to get in behind Japan's fullbacks, and just in general, I don't think Japan knew how to handle Emma Sears.
She didn't take her chances.
She missed some of the biggest chances for the US on the night, but I think the amount of space she had, how quick and vertical she is, I would absolutely say based on Tuesday night, Emma Sears, you want her in the squad because I think she offers something really special.
James Joseph, who I would still count in the B squad, she came off the bench at the end.
She's another player where I'm like, I think she just offers something different.
Yeah.
And I think that's really important.
So Sears and Joseph would be two players.
Both the fullbacks I think struggled.
Patterson and Real, Real probably would be at the bottom of the list.
She had a really tough night, gets well beaten on the goal, wasn't tight enough.
Sentinel would be also in, in the, in the, in the tough group.
Tamara, you got any more positive ones in the B group?
when I think about the fact that Jaedyn Shaw is still a little bit working her way back- Yeah from injury, I thought that there were bright moments.
I thought, I really like, the sort of sparks of promise that I'm seeing specifically between Jaedyn Shaw and Lily Johannes in terms of the way that they- connect through the midfield.
I feel like they understand the kinds of creative runs that the other one likes to make and are able to find each other in ways that can really penetrate a back line.
I think there were a couple moments of that, especially in the first half, that makes me optimistic about what could happen if the two of them get more time together.
I think they play off of each other really well.
I think overall it was technically sloppy from the US, and I know that I'm taking into consideration the fact that the field was slick and wet, it was cold, the ball is gonna skid, but the wayward touches and passes that I saw, especially in the first half, like I said, I wasn't seeing Japan looking as wayward.
And Japan, just like the US, also made pretty wholesale changes to their starting 11 from Saturday, or from- Nine yes, from Saturday.
Nine, nine changes, I believe.
Yeah, so nearly wholesale.
Nearly wholesale.
so I thought that this probably was a game that I'm trying to remember a game where I saw Claire Hutton struggle quite as much to take control of the- It's tough midfield in an assertive way, which was sort of amplified by the fact that she also had the captain's armband on Tuesday night.
I know.
I felt the same way about Olivia Moultrie.
These are two players that I was expecting by now, when I think about their performances against Portugal, for example, or even Brazil going further back, I think I was expecting to see a little bit more clear signs of improvement, and I didn't.
Anecdotally, I can think about times when a player or a team has had a disappointing performance and you're, you're talking to them kind of off the record privately, and they'll often say, "Well, what do they expect from me when they're putting so-and-so around me?"
Oh.
so- I need to have more of those kind of conversations.
Well, I, I think it's like, okay, if it's, let's say it's due to, like, schedule congestion.
So there's a heavily rotated side that's always playing in, in this tournament or, or that tournament, and they're trying to work their way into, into the main squad on, on the weekends, and they're like, "Yeah, but what does he want to see from me if, like, you know, I'm not getting service from so-and-so or, or this and that?"
So I, I do wonder when you have clearly defined And I'm not saying that as a proper excuse, but I, I do know that that is in the reasoning from, like, a player's point of view sometimes.
So I, I do wonder when you start to get these clearly defined, which I still don't feel like we have, but it looks like- One type 11 changes to a starting 11, which usually we, we had seen a little bit more of these experimental rosters of, oh, how does this pairing work?
How does this person- Yeah work alongside this veteran player?
But when you have a true B squad, how much of that is an excuse for a given player?
If they were aroundfive or six regular starters.
I'm, I'm just saying.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I kind of like with Claire Hutton, I, I, I thought about that, you know, 'cause we're so excited to see her get the captain's armband, becoming the youngest to start a US Women's National Team wearing it since, since 2001.
She'd worn the armband, but coming off the bench- Mm-hmm for Emma Hayes in, in the past.
So yeah, just kind of some things I was, like, thinking about, but I don't know if that's valid from a national team's manager that expects her team to be, first in the world.
Well, she was- My take is it's Well, just sorry, quickly.
I think it's- Yeah super valid, Jill, because I think you put Claire Hutton with, like, Rose Lavelle or Heats next to her or Joh- That's what I was thinking Johannes and Lavelle, right?
So- But anyone can make that excuse for themselves, right?
Anybody- But- anybody playing, playing midweek in Seattle c- can, can say that.
I just think relationism between players is so important.
And so again, this idea of like, oh, is it Are we going for results?
Are we going for development?
I don't see why development has to be 11 changes.
It, like, they- there could be a midpoint where you're working through particular relationships, and it's not about You, if, if you truly wanna evaluate a, a quote, unquote B team player, you almost want them next to a couple of A team players to see how they interact.
The idea of switching out the entire team, part of me's like, "Ugh, how much do you learn?"
Sorry, T, I know I interrupted.
No, no, no, no.
You're all good.
I was just gonna say that Hayes was asked about that specifically in the press conference.
Yeah.
Why, what is the benefit of making these wholesale changes rather than sort of trickling in- Yes you know, a few experienced players and mixing them in with the less experienced players?
And to summarize, or paraphrase Hayes' response, she said that if she were to do that, she wouldn't be able to develop as many players as quickly.
And she, I think is Which to me, I'll actually say, means that she is still in a certain kind of developmental phase to close the gap, as she has said many times, I think, between teams A and B across a wider breadth of players.
which is a very particular kind of s- or approach to take when it comes to development because I definitely think that if any one of Hutton, Johannes, Moultrie, Shaw had been playing with any one of Coffey- Coffey Lavelle, Heats, um- Yeah or even if, if I'm thinking especially of players like Hutton and Johannes playing in front of a Girma, Sonnet pairing.
Girma, yeah.
You know, because I think about, especially with the midfielders, which is where I think because Japan's midfield is so tight and organized, I think that's where a lot of exposure was happening, in the first half.
And again, this You had Fuka Nagano, but this wasn't necessarily Japan's first string midfield either.
Right.
You had Nagano- I know but it was- And Fuka had a game, I thought.
I thought I mean, she was fantastic, but obviously Hase- Hasegawa comes on in the second half, but, like- Oh, right this wasn't even Japan's first string, so- Yeah there's a lot going on there.
Mm-hmm.
So i- in conclusion, when, when we take all this and put it in a pot, how much pressure on a scale of one to 10 would you say is on the US Women's National Team, to win this and have a really strong game in, in this third of a three-game set if 10 is like absolutely make or break, you must go, go perform and do well?
I mean, I think that there was a lot of concern, at least from a storytelling perspective, about how to cover three games against the same team in such a short period of time and make it interesting.
So I think from a narrative perspective- this is the best outcome we could've asked for.
The scriptwriters love it.
The fact that the US You know?
The fact that the US righted the ship with their first go against Japan since the loss at SheBelieves last year with a win.
Mm-hmm.
Then, you know, we make all of these changes, and the way that I viewed Tuesday night's game was very much B team versus B team.
Yeah.
Comparing bench depths, you know?
Japan wins that battle.
Yeah, I was like, did they talk about this?
It is weird.
Yeah, interim manager Cano was- It's perfect on the same wavelength.
Cinema.
He, he was like, "Emma, I got you."
Yeah, but there is a chance that they kind of They're both in it for the same reasons.
Like- Mm-hmm.
Yeah I wanna see what my best players can do.
I wanna see how, who can rise to the challenge.
Like, there is a chance that they, that they talked about that.
Oh, God, I wish- It's possible I wish I had asked.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
If, if it's, if it's again, like mirror image on, of the third, I feel like, I feel like we've gotta try to ask, ask Hayes about it.
But anyway, okay.
Yeah.
No, I think this is the best possible outcome.
And if you guys remember when I interviewed Mina Tanaka at NWSL Media Day and she asked how I thought the split was gonna go, I have to pat myself on the back for being accurate so far in saying that I saw at least one win for each side.
So this is I mean, to come off of SheBelieves, which was more of a tournament style, international window, this is just as good in a different way if you ask me.
Okay.
So Friday night at Dick's Sporting Goods Park in Commerce City, Colorado, do we say, see the same starting 11 that we saw in San Jose to kick this whole thing off?
Ooh.
I think we'll definitely see Claudia Dickie.
Okay, but that's one.
We haven't talked about goalkeepers, yeah.
That's one.
My guess would be maybe you get Sonnet Gurma, 'cause Sonnet was taken off early- Mm-hmm.
Okay on Tuesday night.
Mm-hmm.
So I think you get Sonnet Gurma who i- at, in the middle, who were meant to play in San Jose, but Sonnet- Mm-hmm picked up a little bit of a knock, but she seems like she's all right.
Okay, so that would be one change.
That would be one change.
All right.
You've gotta imagine Giselle at left back is feeling pretty good right now.
Emily Fox- And Fox again feels like an out, probably the biggest lock on the whole roster, Emily Fox at right back.
Low-key.
Midfield's interesting 'cause, you know, I think all of us on this pod rate Claire Hutton very highly, and I would like to see Claire Hutton get a bit of a run out with maybe Sam Coffey and Lavelle.
I just- With the big kids.
With the big kids.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it would be really interesting.
And obviously Heats came off the bench and did a bit of work on Tuesday night, so maybe you don't start her- for game three.
But-I don't know.
Am I crazy for saying that?
No, I, I'm, I like what you're doing So Theo's mine then to be- I'm walking with you, Theo.
You're walking this with me?
Yeah.
I'm with.
My, my guess would be, yeah, Sonnet comes in- Hutton and He- and- You said Hutton hypothetically comes in for Heaps.
Or Johannes for Heaps, I would like to see.
And then up front, I mean, this is where it becomes more about fitness.
Like- I don't think Rodman and Wilson can keep getting run out, so And Michelle Cooper- And mind you, altitude factor didn't play on Tuesday.
Altitude factor- On Friday yeah, but, you know, Wilson and Heaps are from Colorado, so we also could bring that argument up again.
But I don't think it's something that like gets- As much, as much as Emma Hayes- activated in your blood cells the second you- Yeah touch down if you haven't played there in a while.
M- I hear you, though Michelle, Michelle Cooper really is, is in for a start.
That's probably the- Yeah other forward who's probably due.
But Wilson and Rodman should start, I think.
So yeah, maybe three changes.
What am I saying?
Sonnet, Hutton, and Cooper.
Are you putting- So it's eight- both Thompsons in the starting 11?
I am.
Yes.
Yes.
Actually, so I, I am gonna put Sorry, so scrap that.
Thompson, Cooper, and Wilson.
Wilson.
So Rodman- I like that may be on the bench.
Rodman on the bench.
I like that.
That's- If we're trying- a fair starting 11 to me.
Yeah.
And if w- if we're trying to figure Hayes out, her quote that she said, post-game around, Wilson and Rodman was this, when asked about Wilson in particular, "I'm proud of Sophie.
She's had a baby.
She's back playing for the national team.
She's missed eight months of development, so you can't just expect that it's going to come.
But we've got to keep building her into that."
Mm-hmm.
And that says to me, like, kind of pushing her to a point of uncomfortable- of, like, an uncomfortable level.
I think it's the same for Trin too, and then she goes on to, to say a little bit more.
They, they I was surprised they played as many minutes as they did on Tuesday, which, like I said, I think showed that either Emma, to th- to that point, Jill, the quote is that Emma d- is ready to give them more minutes, or she really wanted a result on Tuesday night.
Mm-hmm.
But I would definitely think one of them starts, on, on Friday in Colorado.
I can also see- Mm-hmm Tierna Davidson coming off the bench at some point, depending on- Yeah the fitness of either Sonnet or Naomi.
I mean, Naomi seems fine, but I know she picked up a knock toward the end of SheBelieves, so I'm not sure exactly where she's at, because her minutes with Chelsea have been on and off.
but Hayes was pretty effusive about Tierna's contributions, in the second half of Tuesday night's game, saying, I'm not quoting directly, but it she was surprised that she came back looking like she had not left, basically.
and a word that Emma Hayes keeps using, throughout these, these friendlies is experience.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that's something that even if Tierna's not 90-minutes fit yet, is sort of supplementing where she is at in terms of her, her physical fitness when she is on the field.
So I think both going back to what we said about what is it like for a Hutton to be surrounded by a little bit more experience, or Johannes, I'm also thinking for the younger midfielders specifically, what it means for them to be playing in front of an experienced back line as well.
and we're yet, I believe, to see a, for example, Hutton, Coffey double pivot in front of a Germa- That's what I'm thinking Davidson center-back pairing.
Yeah.
Like, that sounds That makes me feel secure, just saying it out loud, personally.
I also don't know if Davidson and Hutton have ever played together based on- Right when she did that injury, and that would be the same for Centnor and any of the, any of the other more recent r- real, any of the other more recent call-ups.
Uh- Mm-hmm I do wanna say 412 days Tierna Davidson was away from the US Women, Women's National Team.
So to step back in after 412 days is something.
She almost had an assist.
She almost had an assist.
On Tuesday night.
I mean, that left foot I'm sure has been dearly missed.
All right.
Well, we will see what Emma Hayes decides the secret sauce is, come Friday, and have all that reaction, back here with you on Full Time.
All right.
We're gonna take a very short break here, and after that, we head out to Wembley.
All right, Theo, while Tamara was in Seattle, you were home in London, but you were at Wembley Stadium, where England got a huge boost in their World Cup qualifying chances, beating their rivals Spain by the final score line one-nil.
This was the first time we had seen these two sides go up against each other since the Euro 2025 final.
Can you take us inside, the scenes and the vibes on Tuesday night?
Not a drop of rain in lovely London.
So we had that on Seattle on Tuesday night.
Yeah, it was quite the moment.
62,000 people out in Northwest- So cool in Northwest London for this one.
And before the game, there was a real amazing sense of occasion.
The Lionesses are about to celebrate their 500th game- Ooh next Saturday against Iceland, and so this home game against Spain, they had all these great kind of Lionesses from the last 50 years there giving little speeches, clap, doing a guard of honor for the team when they came on.
They were also celebrating Mary Earps, who retired last year, which was kind of funny, because, you know, you can go back and listen to some podcasts from last summer.
Obviously, she retired, and then stuff came out in her book, and it was all kind of a bit of a hoo-ha.
And so it's kind of interesting seeing her back in front of the fans for the first time.
But she actually did get a very good reception.
There was kind of rumors that England fans were gonna boo her.
Did not happen.
I was there.
She got a very warm reception, from the England fans.
And yeah, there was this kind of amazing, nostalgic night of celebration for the program, which I think when you think at how quick, how far European football, English football has come in such a short space of time, nights like that are really special, because- I think they don'tAlways, they haven't always dipped into the history.
So here you have this big matchup, and there was sort of so much happening off the pitch that by the time kickoff, it felt like we'd had all these celebrations, and all these fireworks, and all these sort of tears, and we'd shed all these tears even before kickoff, and then here we had this big game.
And then Lauren Hemp scores after three minutes, the only goal of the game in what- Right you know, a bizarre goal if you ever see it.
Truly.
Leslie Russo sort of falls over and, like, is on her back when she scoops the ball up, and then Lauren Hemp scores like a swivel volley.
It's, it's an unbelievable yet sort of impromptu, improvised finish for England, and it just the place exploded.
And then after that goal, there was almost this big sigh of relief, like, "Okay, lads."
Right.
"We're comfortable.
We can do this."
And that was sort of the story of the game.
It, you know, it wasn't dissimilar to, USA, Japan, in a way.
Spain had all the ball, much like the United States did against Japan, but England looked very comfortable at getting bodies in the way.
And, and, you know, Georgia Stanway, Keira Walsh, young Lucia Kendall, you know, she has less than five caps.
Really amazing midfield work from that trio, and I think they were the stars of the show, as well as, uh- Esme Morgan, NWSL's own Washington Spirit Esme Morgan going up against NWSL's own Esther Gonzalez.
That was quite the battle.
And, you know, the Spirit Gotham battle there, and Morgan had the better of her.
You know, not a sniff of Gonzalez on the night.
And that was- Wow kind of Spain's story, just they could not get through a very, very well-focused, defensive England team.
And for, for those of you, that don't, that don't remember, are saying, "What was the score of that again?"
You have to remember, that final, in Basel, Switzerland, was 1-1, and then England winning 3-1 on penalty kicks.
So I think that reaction you talk about in the third minute, Theo- Yeah had to have been, like, a giant sigh of relief of, "Oh, okay," like, "W- we can kind of defend ourselves."
Or it's not defending your title, but it's defending your pride because- Yeah nobody wants def- yeah.
It things have been so tightly contested between these two sides over the last seven meetings, England three wins, two draws, Spain, two wins, that for England, this just had to be such a massive moment, taking out the fact that even World Cup qualifying is on the line.
In the post-game, in the reaction, Theo, what was your sense o- of- of how the English national team is feeling and the Spanish national team?
I think the English national team, Sarina Wiegman especially, wanted to put a pin in feeling too good.
It was, it was like, "Let's not start the party, lads.
We've got-" Not the celebrations of your of the final.
No.
All the celebrations were pre-games.
You know, Keira Walsh got her- Yeah her shirt with the 100th cap on.
Gotcha.
Yeah.
Everyone gave their flowers to Mary Earps.
We had all these- Cool historic Lionesses coming out.
You know, that was kind of where the celebrations ended.
After the game, it was three points, and we're on to Reykjavik.
Um- England top the group now, three wins from three, nine points.
Crucially, three points ahead of Spain, but these two teams in this World Cup qualifying group are gonna meet again in Mallorca in June.
So this is, this story is not over, and Wiegman wanted to make that very clear.
She was happy with the result.
She knows it d- and she said this herself.
She said, "This, this, this win doesn't mean anything if we don't beat Iceland on Saturday," and, and we- Yeah and we keep moving in the group.
So it's not job done, and I was quite You know, Wiegman, as I'm sure you will know, is a very level-headed woman.
Yeah.
And she kept it, in that, in, in the, in, in the post-match.
You know, she said, "We defended tremendously tonight.
I'm really proud of that."
She, she used the phrase proper English performance, which kind of did the rounds during Euro 2025.
I'm sure.
'cause England were- No, yeah, it did yeah.
It was the, it was like a clich last summer, and she brought it back up again on, on Tuesday night.
But I think she also said, you know, "We want to play a bit more like Spain.
I would love to have more of the ball.
I'd love to pass more."
Oh.
"This wasn't a perfect performance, as well as we defended."
So, you know, it was your normal level-headed stuff from Wiegman.
Long way to go.
Only one team, only the top team will automatically qualify out of this group, so you really wanna be number one.
And what did this all mean for Spain?
Well, Sonia Bymedes, as you can imagine, was quite a cut-up figure, quite solemn.
not quite monosyllabic, but not giving very long answers, very cutting kind of journalist short.
There was a lot of good Spanish media travel to the game, so it was really great to see that.
Great.
I, you know, I would say she was positive about her team a little bit.
I think there were a lot of questions about could Spain have moved the ball more?
Could they have worked England harder?
And she was kind of like, "Well, you know, we hit the post twice.
We created, I think it was 18 shots, forcing five saves from Hannah, Hannah, Hannah Hampton."
You know, you can see there's a little bit of not, maybe not, not enough shots on target, but they hit the post twice, and I think they had seven shots blocked.
So that's, you know, almost half the shots were just not even getting to the goalkeeper.
So, you know, I think she was like, "A different night, a different score."
And I think it was a funny game in that the margins are so small, right?
One of those shots, Vicki Lopez I thought had a great night, and- Yeah her shot in the second half that kisses the post.
You know, if that is six inches to the right, it's a goal.
It's 1-1. and even Hannah Hampton pulls off an amazing save from a corner kick and a header from, Edna, right at the death, and that again could have been 1-1.
So I don't think necessarily Spain were, were brilliant.
She didn't say, "We were hard done by," but she said, you know, "Fine margins.
That's football.
I thought we did enough to get something out of the game tonight."
And, you know, maybe there's an element there, but she was not best pleased.
I'll, I'll, I'll put it at that.
All right.
So Spain and England's quest continues to qualify for the World Cup in 2027. but before we get out of here, we gotta give our credit to New Zealand, who has officially qualified for the World Cup as they defeated Papua New Guinea in the final of the Oceania World Cup qualifying tournament.
that final 1-nil, that's now six consecutive World Cups for them.
Oh, Theo put in a trivia at the end of this.
All right, Theo.
Yeah.
Can anyone name all the teams that have qualified for next year's World Cup as of now?Anyone want to have a guess?
Definitely Theo Lloyd-Hughes.
Tamara go, Tamara go, Tamara go.
Well, just to get the easy one out of the way, Brazil of course as host.
Brazil is there.
Ding, ding, ding, ding.
My, my spiritual besties, Japan for having won Asian Cup.
They are there.
Ding, ding, ding, ding.
Now it's getting a bit sticky for me.
AFCON messed us up.
This is- That's true yeah.
This is hard too because it's such an open-ended.
It's not like name the five other teams who have qualified.
It could be- Well, you've gotta, you've gotta think about who else did well at the Asian Cup.
So who did they beat in the final?
Oh, so it's as long as you reach the final.
So Australia as well.
Well, you've got to go back to that podcast we did about a month ago about how do you qualify for the 2026 World Cup.
Oh, okay, yes.
But you've got, you've got six- Theo you've got six teams coming out of Asia.
You've got- Okay, so like Tamara said, Australia you've got the two finalists, you've got the semifinalists, and you've got the, the best, the sixth, fifth and sixth place finishers as well.
So Japan, Australia, off the top of my head- South Korea China, N- South Korea, yes, North Korea- and the Philippines returning for- consecutive World Cups after qualifying for- I love that for all of them for qualifying for the first time in 2023.
So yeah, I believe we are now up six from Asia, Brazil, and Oceana, New Zealand.
So we're up to eight teams have booked their ticket for next summer.
Quite fun.
I love it.
And that's why he makes the big bucks, people.
And that's why- All right I write the show notes.
thanks so much, for listening.
Oh, can I actually get in, read out something?
So- Is it another trivia question?
No, this is not trivia.
This is something someone wrote that I thought I'd throw in here.
This is from Megumi Shimura 1891.
Oh.
"Hello."
Hey, Megumi.
"I'm a full-time fan from Japan, and I love the way Tamara talks about the Japanese team.
Thanks for doing the research and presenting the team so accurately.
Had to say something."
I think that's an invite to Japan.
That sounds like a full-blown tour- Name the dates- from our friend Megumi and I'm there.
It's Megumi Shimura 1891.
Thanks, Megumi.
Thank you for your comment.
We're always- Thank you so much.
That means a lot we're always here to receive.
we also got a very nerdy comment that I think we'll have to save for a future episode that was about- the Japanese players, oh, sorry, the players on the Japan team who all- Mm-hmm came through Tokyo Belleza Football Club.
And they were making a point that, like, if more of the Japanese players played on the same club team now, like Spain and Barcelona, would Japan be an even better national team?
Oh.
So we'll save that question maybe for a mail bag, but, I just wanted to thank the person that also sent in that question.
That's fun.
But we didn't quite have time to get into it today.
And did you know The Athletic has partnered with Yahoo Sports to provide free best-in-class coverage of women's sports?
That's right.
Go check out the women's sports hub at sports.yahoo.com/women-sports.
That does it for our show today.
Thank you so very much as always for listening.
My name is Jillian, Jillian Sachukitz.
That's Tamara Griffin.
That's Theo Lloyd-Hughes.
And of course, this show would not happen without our video producer, Leah Griffin, and our executive producer, Emily Olson.
Thanks for listening, and we'll see you soon.
