What Ever Happened to “No Space for Hate” in the WNBA?

The aftermath of the Fever-Mercury game continues, with Alyssa Thomas speaking out about the harassment shes endured in the wake of her on-court skirmish with Caitlin Clark. As a result, WNBA Commissioner Cathy Engelbert finally speaks up about the incident but is it too little too late? And what ever happened to the WNBAs No Space for Hate campaign? Zena and Layshia offer their perspectives on ATs comments and the leagues response, while also praising Stephanie White for her recent comments on the situation. Then, they dig into the Commissioners Cup Final, where the Liberty topped the Aces. Next, in a very special conversation, Zena and Layshia delve into a special announcement from Layshia. They also go deep on Layshias decision to retire from basketball, how to rebuild a life and career off the court while dealing with the grief of losing that community and that purpose, and more. Plus: One More Thing - Championship prediction edition! No Offseason is a part of The Athletic Podcast Network: Sign up for the No Offseason Newsletter: 00:00 Intro 00:54 A Special Announcement from Layshia 2:10 Alyssa Thomas Speaks Out 08:10 Cathy Engelberts Response Statement 13:38 What Ever Happened to No Space for Hate? 18:18 Steph White: People Are Using Our League to Further Divisive Agendas 22:16 New York Liberty Win the Commissioners Cup Final 28:58 Layshia on Life After Retirement from Basketball 32:40 The Toll a Career Takes On Your Body and Mind 43:28 Life After Retirement: How to decide whats next? 46:00 The Grief of Losing Your Identity as a Basketball Player 49:47 One of the Biggest Griefs: Losing Community 53:00 A Recovery Program for Retired Athletes 57:36 When Layshia Knew it was Time to Stop Playing 01:01:47 Layshia on Choosing Myself and Healing Outside of Basketball 01:05:09 One More Thing: Championship Prediction?! Related links and articles: Follow and listen to the audio podcast: Get in touch! Leave a comment wherever youre listening, or email us at NoOffseason@TheAthletic.com Show Links: -YouTube: @No-Offseason -Instagram: @tanooffseason [ -TikTok: @no_offseason [ Credits: -Zena on BlueSky: @zenakeita -Sabreena on BlueSky: @sabreenajm -Chantel on BlueSky: @chanteljennings -Layshia on IG: @layshiac -Annie on X: @anniecostabile -Produced by Taneka Burrell -Executive Produced by Andrea B. Scott Visit the Yahoo Women's Sports Hub: Full Episodes Playlist: Shorts Playlist: Thumbnail: Chris Coduto / Stringer / Getty Images Sport via Getty Images Ian Maule / Stringer / Getty Images Sport via Getty Images

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Video Transcript

If you are one of these people that are online doing this, do not call yourself a WNBA fan.

Our league is about inclusiveness, our league is about competition, our league is about elevating.

Elevating women, elevating marginalized communities, and including empowering and being inclusive all different walks of life.

That is what our league has always been about.

Hello everyone, and welcome to No Off Season.

I'm Zena Cada.

I'm Layshia Clarendon.

And today on the show, how does a player know when it's time to retire, and what does life look like in the aftermath?

Layshia is opening up about their own story.

Plus, Alyssa Thomas speaks out about the ordeal she's been going through in the aftermath of her upgraded foul and suspension, and Cathy's response doesn't quite meet the moment.

But first, friends, we have a lot to get into in this show.

However, we can't do any of that before making a big announcement for the show.

Lay?

Well, I'm gonna cry.

Um- Aww.

Oh, yeah.

So, I've decided to step away from all media, from podcasts, from broadcasting, just for some time for myself to heal and yeah, take, take care of myself.

It's kind of time after retirement and career 2.0 to figure out what's next.

It's a huge decision, and of course we will be so sad to not have you.

I know.

I know.

but there are reasons why I am not crying, and it's, it's part of what we're gonna get into, into, the bigger part of this show in the B block.

But I'm proud of you for making this decision, and we'll talk a little bit more about it in just a moment.

Now, in the midst of all of this, obviously you're stepping away when there's nothing happening in the W, right?

Yeah, right.

It's a pretty quiet time, nothing to comment on.

Clearly.

Clearly.

No fights, no scrapping, my favorite.

Now, what's interesting is that there was one game, just one game, on Tuesday, and we're recording this on Wednesday morning, and you would think it's quiet, but of course that game couldn't have just had its moment, the Commissioners Cup game.

Tuesday was quite the day because first, Alyssa Thomas spoke out on her experience in the aftermath of the Fever-Mercury game.

As most of our listeners surely know by this point, last Wednesday she and Caitlin Clark were involved in a skirmish on the court together, resulting in a Flagrant 2 foul being assigned to AT after the game, as well as a one-game suspension.

In these comments she made am- ahead of the Mercury practice, AT spoke out about the harassment that she has faced in the days since.

Death threats, racial slurs, threats against her family, and some questionable contact/support from the league, specifically Commissioner Cathy Engelbert.

Lay- Ugh.

God when you're looking at this situation, you know, what do you make of it overall?

I mean, one, it's like, yeah, you can't wake up in the W at any point and not feel like having things on fire.

So I just feel for everyone covering the league, the league office, like, it's like you wake up and there's one game, and it's like, "Okay, what do we have today?"

I make a few things of it.

One is that I think about, like, player relationships, and I think back to Napheesa Collier's comments last year about reffing, calling out the league.

I think about how the WNBA went through their, collective bargaining agreement.

Like, there's a, there seems to be, like, still this stain and strain between Cathy and the players- even though they have eventually did get a deal done.

Players are getting that money, but, like, there's kinda seemed to be a lack of repair between Cathy and the players- and maybe, like, relationally still some just strife, which makes sense, even though the money is talking and things have happened.

So that's one thing I'm kind of holding in some context.

and also commissioners are, you know, they're the villains.

You gotta blame somebody for all the things.

Right.

Yeah.

So I think there's a little bit of, like, she's, she's done things wrong, and she's always gonna be wrong because you're the commissioner.

You're, like, the person that people have to blame.

I think, players do deserve a lot more though in terms of maybe some proactivity, and this has been a common theme, and I think as the W grows, it's not something that's going away, like the online harassment, particularly the racial slurs that Black players are gonna face, that queer players have faced about having Pride nights.

Like, our league sitting at these intersections of all these identities, this is something the league does need to, like, start to start thinking proactively about of, like, how do you protect players specifically?

Right.

When we grow, when the platform is much bigger, that's the theme we keep talking about.

We're in the big leagues now.

Right.

We're not in the small leagues.

There's a ton more coverage.

And that's the thing.

So when I think about this, it's like, yes, Cathy Engelbert continues to be the target of vitriol from fans on both sides.

Cathy seems to be kind of damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.

and I do- You know, wanna get this out of the way, Cathy Engelbert has ushered the WNBA into new heights, right?

She has brought a lot of investment into the league.

She has brought a lot of new partners, a lot of, opportunity.

She got the flights, et cetera.

How she did all of that d- people have differing opinions of how, but you cannot deny that the WNBA has grown under her tenure.

Now, that all said, there are aspects that have nothing to do with just growth.

It is that extra layer of past the growth, in the midst of the growth.

Yeah.

What have you done to ensure that the product is safe?

And that c- leads into those conversations about the officiating, it leads into the conversation about her relationship with the players, and what all that looks like.

When I look at this situation with Alyssa Thomas, And I, I do wanna give some context as to, if you haven't heard the statement, we have a, an article on the site live now, but you can just look up, like, Alyssa Thomas comments.

and she says in, in the midst of all this, she says it, a lot of us, myself included, didn't even know the play took place until after the game, and now we're being painted as thugs, and there's death threats out on us.

So it's really unacceptable.

It is something that needs to change in this league, and I'm just really sick and tired of it.

And she goes on to say, "Honestly, I didn't even know I was being suspended until 10 minutes before it was put on social media.

We still have yet to hear anything from Cathy.

It's no surprise, you can see what's being said on social media, and yeah, I mean it's unfortunate, but as usual she remains silent, and that's unfortunate when our lives are being threatened."

So these were Thomas' quotes.

Now, our team, Annie Costabile, Sabrina Merchant, you know, they've done some recon, and it seems to be, unknown exactly what kind of contact has happened.

Like, there was some sources said that Cathy did reach out to Alyssa Thomas, but that didn't result in an actual meeting or that she attempted to have a meeting but the meeting never materialized.

so we don't wanna, you know, straight up say that she has been silent and agree with Alyssa Thomas 'cause sources are saying that that wasn't necessarily the case.

But now the, the debate is around maybe you did reach out, but, like, how meaningful was your reach out?

Like, if you weren't able to get a meeting, you know, how much did you prioritize it?

So and that is a conversation that's being had right now, about Cathy's efforts to protect the players.

But the biggest thing that stands out is Alyssa Thomas makes these comments, and then Cathy and the league put out a statement after Alyssa Thomas, speaks out.

And that's where it-- That's where I'm like, "Ooh, that's tough."

Were, was this statement going to come out after the fact?

And in the statement, you know, it says, "The WNBA vehemently, vehemently..." Let me get this quote right.

Condemns.

I was pulling it up too, yeah.

Condemns, yes, exactly.

you know- Condemns any and all forms of hate.

Correct, and like, you know, they're calling it out- And added it, yeah and, yeah.

Oh, if you wanna r- I don't have, I don't have the quote directly in front of me.

Do you have it in front of you?

I'm like trying to- Engelbert states, "The WNBA vehemently condemns any and all forms of hate," and she later added that players' safety and well-being remains the league's top priority.

There you go.

Okay.

and she also said, "What she and her teammates have experienced," she being Alyssa Thomas, "we are aware of Alyssa Thomas' comments."

That's the line.

"We are aware of Alyssa Thomas' comments."

And it's like, but okay, were you gonna be aware of what was happening if Alyssa Thomas had not made comments, right?

W- what were you Were you going to say this next line, "What she and her teammates have experienced is completely unacceptable and not representative of the WNBA community," before Alyssa Thomas made her comments?

And, "The league and our security team have been in contact with the Phoenix Mercury organization and remain committed to protecting all players."

Were you going to say all of this before Alyssa Thomas made her comments?

That's where it's like, yikes.

So that's, that's the first thing that comes to my mind.

The next thing that comes to mind, Lay, and I'm curious what you feel about this, is the comments, how they're being received.

So for people that are in defense of A- Alyssa Thomas, they're saying, "You're too little too late."

People that are in defense of Caitlin Clark or any player that has been deemed harmed, and I put that in quotes, on the basketball court, 'cause that's how people are quite literally saying it- No by AT on the floor, that they- This feels like, are you a victim of Regina George though?

That's like something you would hear.

I mean- 'Cause I have also, I've been on the court with AT, and I'm saying it in, like, in levity.

People are, like, overly reading into it- Yeah, right proportionally.

Yeah.

Like I'm saying it in like a, "Yeah, have you been ran over by AT?

Sorry you got your ass kicked," like- Like but it's, and it's- No, she's not punching people in the throat, like- And we're not trying to make light of people potentially getting hurt, right?

There, you know, there are people that look at what happened to Napheesa Collier and are directly blaming Alyssa Thomas for the fact that she is still out.

So we're not trying to make light of that.

Yeah.

But as basketball players, there are players you just know that if you are in their way, you're not going to end up on the right side of history.

You're not Like, and it's not-- And it's one of those things that I think only as basketball players we feel like it's funny, or not funny, but like it's not as deep to say it's assault, right?

Or you know, it's, it's basketball.

Yeah.

And it shouldn't-- Not all of what we've seen from basketball, people getting teared, torn down or hair pulled or any of the things should be involved in basketball.

Yeah.

But we also are not obtuse enough to know that it happens.

Like- Yes it's sport.

If you freeze, if you froze frame every time somebody did something or when Caitlin elbowed someone or someone got- Yeah hit in the mouth and you're like, "You slapped them," like the context is very different than if we were walking down the street and- Right you did that to someone, so.

Right.

And so, so people are expecting though for the, for the commissioner to say something about that, and I think that that's part of And I get it, 'cause they're like, "This shouldn't be a part of the sport," but you, you, you can't call out every single moment that things like this happen or you're gonna be doing it every game.

There are, there are bad screens, there are bad things that happen in the, you know, in the mix of, box outs, in the m- like, there's stuff all the time.

Yeah.

Yes, this is egregious, and I do think, in the way that it looks in that picture circulating, but I do think that if Cathy Engelbert came out and spoke directly on just that, she'd have to address all of these other things, and that just feels ridiculous to do for a sport, a contact sport, versus calling out this particular thing, which is online hate and- Yeah death threats and- Yeah you know, the things that are- harming players that have nothing to do with basketball.

Yes.

And I- And A'T received her, like, rightful justice- Yeah for that.

Like, yeah.

Yeah.

You're missing a game, you're getting fined, you're getting suspended.

'Cause there's a line of physicality with basketball, and sometimes we cross it as players, like- Yes, yes and so you cross it, you get your, I don't wanna say punishment, I don't like that word, but you- Right get your repercussions for- Repercussion, exactly for crossing the line or consequences for it.

Exactly.

Same way you do a foul or technical or if you, you know, did something derogatory towards fans, like there's- Right there's a code and an ethic that the league has that is being upheld, and A'T is- Boom receiving that.

Boom.

And- Yeah she did not argue it.

She said herself, if that's what they felt was necessary in that moment, then so be it.

So she's not arguing that, and we're not arguing it either.

She got her, her repercussion.

I like the word, I like that word way more than I like punishment.

Thank you.

Punishment, it's like, come on, Bri.

but now it's a matter of fans are like, "Oh, you're making a victim out of Alyssa Thomas," and I, I personally think that's obtuse.

Ooh, gosh.

You're being obtuse.

Yeah.

The victim is not about what she did out on the basketball court or what she has done, if, if, you know, h- how you wanna measure that.

It is about the fact that because of something that happened on a basketball court, she is being, she's receiving death threats, and- Right so damned if she d- damned if Cathy does, damned if she doesn't.

If she calls it out, there are people that are gonna be like, "Well, you didn't call out all these other things, and look at all these other ways that people have been victims on the basketball court."

But here she is calling something out off the basketball court, and it just was like, still tons of people in the comments, people on social media- Yeah being like terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible.

What do you think should happen with this No Space For Hate campaign?

Because I feel like if that was active, a statement like this wouldn't have been viewed in a, oh, you're making someone a, a victim, or it's too late.

Like, if it was active, and this would've immediately come out the second that the punishment was doled, and you could c- start to see the comments around, right?

Like, I saw a p- a pundit on Fox News say that the, the Caitlin Clark situation is deemed because the WNBA is ran by jealous African American lesbians.

No Space For Hate would've been able to, you know, call, not necessarily just that pundit out, but all of this out before Alyssa Thomas ever had to say anything.

And then you're not even worrying, like, you're not even thinking about, has Cathy reached out?

Maybe you are, but you're not concerned about that because you're seeing the league immediately be proactive.

So what do you think, if the No Space For Hate campaign was running the way it should, that we would expect- Yeah what would you imagine we would've seen?

I know I'm thinking, I guess, how do you implement it, or do you, do you give a statement after every single incident that happens, or how do you- I, like, I don't know if it's every single incident, 'cause that would be so exhausting.

Yeah.

But it would be, anytime you see something bubbling up- Yeah I think that's important.

I think it also is a matter of making it a, I don't know, you just, you kinda make it a mandate, but- I think the problem is it's, it's online and it's not players, so the like, how do we- Mm-hmm how do you, God, words today are very carceral.

Police, I don't wanna use police.

How do you, um- Yeah, right, right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

whatever word for police, insert.

How do you, you can't control fans because they're not getting paid, right?

They're not under the policies of WNBA- Yeah players.

You can't give 'em texts, can't give 'em fines.

You can kick them out of arenas.

Mm-hmm.

You should be able to ban them more on social, but we know social is the wild- Mm-hmm west of insanity.

And so we're talking about, like, this league where Cathy has some control and semblance over, and there's some values and rules, and we're talking about larger society and fans who aren't governed by any of that.

They have no code, moral ethic, outside of whatever their own individual families or were raised, so I think that's the hard part.

And I guess the way I think it could be if players were really bought in and the league was really bought in of, like, if you're a player who knows that your fans often do this to people- Mm-hmm or, like, do it, ride for you really hard, or you're a player that's like, "Don't do this in my name," that's, I think of it that way.

Mm-hmm.

Not trying to put all the onus on players, but, like, if people were doing that defending me, like, I've seen people do that in the comments about, like, pronouns, like come for people like, "Layshia uses this pronoun."

Oh.

I'm like- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I'm like, that's not even correct actually.

They be fighting for you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

It's true, yeah.

But, like, I don't, they shouldn't go, like, I don't actually want you to fight people in terms of, like- Yeah like, hateful, hateful comments of course, but, like, someone will, like, what they deem accidentally misgender me, meanwhile I use literally all pronouns.

Yeah.

So someone is, like, coming for me like, "Layshia uses they/them pronouns."

I'm like, that's actually not true.

Yes, it's true, but it's not completely true.

Right, right.

It's like- And I, like, I see what you're trying to do.

Yes.

I appreciate it, but it's- So, like- You're causing more divisiveness- Thank you here.

But yeah.

Yeah.

So I think about the way, like, fans ride for players.

It's also, like, fanatics.

It's a part of the sport, and it sucks, and it's not cool about, like, I think of, like, picking a side, and I'm like, well, wait, that's kinda why sports exist- That's it 'cause we pick a side.

Like- That's it the binary's kind of a part of sports 'cause there's a winner and a loser.

It's your team versus my team.

Yeah.

But we're speaking to, like, this larger cultural issue right now of, like, people not having any, self-accountability for how we show up in online spaces, and it's really hateful.

Yeah.

Like, you called it out a few episodes back of, like, showing up with some form of decorum and respect and, like, human decency.

Like, Alyssa Thomas is, like, a person and should not be afraid to go home at night and- be getting death threats about anything that happened on a basketball court.

Like, that's- Yeah.

League's addresses insanity leaked addresses- Yes personal text messages.

Like, it's been- That's a mob mentality, and, like, that needs to be called out- It's scary like, coming for people- It's very scary in that way.

Yeah.

It's unacceptable.

No, you're absolutely right.

And it's so funny, like, as you're saying all of this, like what no space for hate could look like, it makes me think of what Steph White said after the fact.

so at her practice, Steph White said, you know, "As a league, there's been so much more toxicity, racism, homophobia, straight out nonsense, hate and nonsense, and it's absolutely unacceptable.

Most of this is coming from the online community.

Most of this, in my heart of hearts, I believe is not coming from WNBA fans, Indiana Fever fans.

I believe this is people who are using our league, using our players to further divisive agendas."

And I appreciated her saying that because to a degree, if you are an outsider who's never watched the WNBA and you see an image like that, or you see plays like that, I understand the concern, right?

I understand this concern, like what is happening over in the W?

Yes.

Like this is not cool.

I- so I get that there are people that are looking at Cathy's comments and you're like, "Well, you're not gonna call out the thing that happened that made all of us so upset?"

I, I can- I absolutely understand that.

But at the same time, if you are watching the league and you are in this space, you understand that that's not the first time that's happened, and it's also not gonna be the last time it happens.

But you're absolutely right, that it needs to be addressed, yet this is a separate issue, right?

That and, and policing the line of physicality is a separate issue from what is being discussed.

Stephanie White continued and she said, "What I think some level of this should be what a- incorporated into what Cathy Engelbert said.

With fans, the love and hate relationship with fans and the love and hate relationship that they have with players and teams, that is going to come."

Right?

And she was just talking about, you know, people having, criticizing a player's on-court performance or even the incident that resulted in Thomas' suspension.

I agree with her.

That's gonna come.

People are gonna cr- critique that.

but she said, she continues, "It's not hard to not be a jerk."

Yeah.

And it's true.

If you are one of these people that are online doing this, do not call yourself a WNBA fan.

Our league is about inclusiveness.

Our league is about competition.

Our league is about elevating, elevating women, elevating marginalized communities, and including empowering and being inclusive all different walks of life.

That is what our league has always been about.

Yes, Steph.

That I think is the level- Like- That's what you think the no space for hate, what Cathy could have been s- saying is like, reiterate what the league is about.

Don't let these- Yes trolls control the messaging of what the league is about.

Don't let them say this message is about victim, a vi- or this punishment is victim-blaming, or this statement is, creating a victim out of s- like no, no, no, no, no, no.

Mm-hmm.

We're gonna do our jobs, we're gonna protect the players, right?

And that's what Cathy was saying.

But also remember, do not call yourself a, a WNBA fan if you're engaging in this sort of behavior.

I love that.

This is what our league is about.

Yes.

Right?

Like- And it's like the ownership of Steph being an, the Indiana Fever coach, and Steph is phenomenal, he's been one of my favorite leaders.

Her being like, "You're not gonna use this.

You're not gonna tear Alyssa Thomas down and use this even though it was my player," right?

She could- Yeah, right that's the thing, like being the one- Right to be like, "Not in my name.

No, like, don't call it, not in our, not in the name of our league- Yep I'm not gonna let you do that."

Like- Yep she's taking back the narrative of like, "This is our league and this is what we stand for."

Boom.

Yeah.

No space for hate.

Yeah.

Whoever is behind this, which- I love it I would love to do some research into that, but whoever is behind this, that is what it's gotta be about.

It has got to be about taking back the narrative and making sure that that is at the center.

Okay.

Let's move on.

We did wanna address those comments and how that was received, and talk about the game.

Oh yeah, basketball.

Just a little bit.

Just a little bit.

There's a little basketball game casually.

Couple minutes.

The Commissioner's Cup final that happened Tuesday night.

the Aces came in without A'ja Wilson, who was struggling with a, an ankle injury, or was sidelined with an ankle injury rather.

she looked good on the sideline though.

She looked good.

Shout out, sis.

but the Liberty beat the Aces at home in Barclays.

Barclays sounded so good.

Shout out Liberty fans.

The energy was popping in there.

and they end up winning that game 93-85.

The Liberty had their best game of the season by Sabrina Ionescu and Breanna Stewart.

My goodness.

The f- the duo of them was insane.

Stewie ends up winning, ends up winning the MVP, but as she's presented it, she's like, "We can share it, we can share it-" Right.

and brings up Sabrina.

because yeah, it was, it was an unbelievable performance by Sabrina Ionescu, especially in that fourth quarter, that they could have lost this game.

In the third quarter, Jackie Young did everything.

Um- Ev- I mean- Everything that she- her back is sore today right.

She, she did a lot.

She everything she could for an A'ja-less Aces.

But ultimately, in my opinion, down the stretch, they, they won s- there was like, there were cuts that were being kind of like, the Liberty were cutting to the basket, they were getting to the rebounds, they were, going o- you know, whether they were going under screens or just too late on screens.

The Aces looked like they were lagging in the second half, particularly in that fourth quarter down the stretch.

And then they also had shots that were like, don't get me wrong, Cheyenne Parker Ta- Parker-Ty has had a really good game and did a lot of great things for the Aces, but a pull-up three in transition from CPT is not necessarily the shot we're looking for, right?

Yes, yes.

For the Aces.

there was a, a transition take that, um- Kennedy Carter had, and, you know, Jackie Young was filling a, a, the right wing, and Kennedy went down the middle and, you know, put it up in a little bunny sh-- But she typically would hit, but it came up short and the Aces weren't in position to rebound.

So there were, like, moments like that where the Aces took shots a little too early.

The-- Not the right people had shots.

Their offense didn't have direction, and, and then they weren't on the boards.

They just weren't on the boards late in the game.

And so I feel like that's what happened, to cause that loss.

But what'd you see in this game, and what does this mean for the Liberty to win the Commissioner's Cup?

Now the first two-time Commissioner's Cup champion.

Yeah.

I mean, everything you said about the Aces was like, oh yeah, that's the ripple effect of not having A'ja Wilson on the floor, so- Rebounding, number one.

Number two, running your offense.

So those little bunnies that, like, probably go in, or, like, Cheyenne's not taking necessarily those shots, like, because you have the player you orbit around.

You're getting the ball into A'ja.

You're getting it to the elbow.

Like, one, her presence as a leader on the floor, and not that there aren't other leaders like Jackie Jewell.

There's other, like, championship players.

But we talked about this early on in the podcast of, like, taking A'ja Wilson off of a team and seeing what it does.

Like, she's like one of the most impactful players to her team.

So I think about the way an offense runs systematically, and you don't have her, and that puts a lot more pressure on Jackie.

It's like you get much easier shots, high-quality shots with all of the attention that A'ja Wilson sucks.

So everyone's like- Pressure meter goes up a bit, and you have to do more, and your shots aren't as high quality because A'ja's not sucking all the attention and drawing everything and wearing down the defense, and rim protecting, blocking shots.

Someone to guard- Right Stewy, someone to force Stewy to guard, so she's a little more exhausted.

so that's some of what I just saw with the difference of, like, a MVP caliber player in the queen A'ja herself, who looks great on the sideline.

And then on the other end, I think about the New York Liberty, who, like, have had their ups and downs through the season, injuries.

S- at the end of the day, Stewy and Sabrina.

Like, one, Stewy's a winner.

She is.

She just-- I mean, you-- I just go back to UConn.

She is.

Like, I just-- The amount of times I just sit back at times and be like, "Damn, Stewy won again.

Stewy's a winner."

Like, I'm waiting for- Four for four.

Like- I'm waiting for the commercial of just like- Yeah some- I can see the imagery of just, like, Stewy on a beach or something, and, like, all she does is win.

and then the way Sabrina can command a floor, like the- Mm-hmm importance of a point guard who is seasoned, who is poised, who can play in pick and roll.

And Sabrina is a true three-level scorer.

Like- Mm-hmm she's got the floater.

She's got the middy.

She's got the deep range, so you have to guard her at off the three-point line, right?

That sets up more spacing.

And then her finishing at the rim has improved since her time in the league.

And so I think with New York, you see, like, okay, people have talked their mess.

They've had their bumps, but like- Mm-hmm it's all about the timing of when you peak.

So I feel like New York kinda reminded us of, like, keep-- Make sure y'all keep our name in your mouth.

Like, put some respect back on our name.

Right.

Right, right, right.

Mm-hmm.

No, this is, this is big.

Breanna Stewart talked about, like, at, in, in the post-game, "This is great for our belief.

Like, we have big b- beliefs and thoughts for ourselves, and so this is really just in alignment with that, that we can play up to that level," especially with, like, some of the ups and downs that they've had this season.

I, I really think that, you know, I, I give a lot of credit to New York Liberty, especially at the end of that game, after they scored 14 in the third.

Jackie Young went insane in the third, and they, that's when, the Aces finally took a lead, which was- Interesting I think it was, like, 71-69.

It was like, oh.

Like, and it was kinda early in the third, too.

And it was like, oh, like, the Aces are the Aces.

Like, they are unstoppable.

And their bench was coming in.

Kirsten Bell came in, was hitting shots.

Kennedy Carter was doing stuff off the bench.

And so it was kind of like, oh, they're kinda relentless.

But then you saw Chelsea Gray was in foul trouble.

Jackie Young was a little bit in foul trouble, and things kinda slowed.

Like, they, they just weren't as a- aggressive, and New York took full advantage.

They were putting Chelsea into actions, and, you know, trying to get her to foul or, you know, have to make some decisions.

Sabrina was just dicing 'em up, dicing 'em up, sharpen her knife.

And it was, it was fun to watch.

I like that.

It was really, really-- Ching ching.

Just, you know, knife against knife.

If, if you're not watching us, you have no idea what's happening.

Either way, congratulations to the Liberty.

w- we know that Commissioner's Cup is typically a nice little inside look as to what the playoffs could look like.

So it would be interesting if these two ended up in the, the actual final, at the end of the season, similar to what happened in the NBA.

Anywho, on the other side of this break, we've been having some fun, but we gotta have some serious conversations.

How do you know when it's time to step off the court, and how do you deal with the transition?

Layshia, you're gonna bring us inside.

Don't go anywhere, y'all.

Welcome back.

As we mentioned at the top of the episode, this will be Layshia's last pod as co-host on "No Off Season," and we are gonna miss you so much in so many ways.

Your knowledge, your insight, your authenticity, your energy.

I mean, I particularly have loved this little Wednesday record.

I know.

it's just been a lot of fun, and I've learned a lot from you.

I've been learning from you since I met you, and I'm just very grateful that we've had your s- perspective over the last few months.

And we're also grateful that in this show, we're gonna have some space to kinda go deeper into why you've made this decision and how players in general deal with this transition from 24/7 basketball to whatever comes next in their lives.

And I will say, to start this off, Lay, I went through a little thing of this, and I don't know.

I might be still going through it.

But as a person that my, for the majority of my teen into adult life, young adult life, my life was structured around school and basketball.

Mm-hmm.

You knew that when you finished a end of year test, you would go to the next year Right?

And you'd know, you, you'd know your teacher, you'd know your classes, you know your structure of class, whatever.

When you start sports, you know you've got school, then you got, you know, practice the a- afternoon.

You do all that through middle school, high school, whatever.

Then you get to college, and it's a very similar thing.

You, you base your schedule around your sport and your classes.

And if you go pro, it's even more so than that.

It is, you base your schedule around your season, around your practice, around your games, around your, conditioning, around your rehab, around everything that has to do with basketball as the nucleus.

And then all of a sudden, it's gone.

At least the on the court stuff is gone.

And you're kinda like, "Damn."

Yeah.

"What's gonna do with all this time?"

You know, this is a lot of stuff, um- of, of time to fill.

And it, it makes you have to think about how to fill that time.

What do you wanna do with that time?

Who are you with all of this new time?

Lord.

Right?

Yeah.

So I start with all of these questions, and I wanna ask you, what, as you're asking yourself these questions, what was the first question you had to yourself when basketball was no longer at your nucleus?

Oof.

Like retirement?

Oh, God.

I mean, I was relieved to be done playing, for one.

There was some relief of like- Mm-hmm I don't have to go to practice anymore.

Facts.

My senior year, I was like- Hey, my knees I could just walk.

Yeah, there was a lot of- So exciting.

There was - I remember the first birthday I had, because my birthday's, beginning of May, and the training camp.

So my entire adult life, except for COVID year, so, I was, I'd never been home for my birthday.

I've always been in- Whoa in a training camp, at somewhere in some season.

So like, "What are you doing for your birthday?"

I'm like, "Go to practice, and then, like, go to a birthday dinner."

Like, and before that, I was training and leading up, like, spring conditioning, which is really intense.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

So something like that is, like, to your point, the way your life orbits around the sport.

That, like, the first time I didn't have a, I had a birthday outside of camp and not a global pandemic, I was like, "Oh, like, I could travel for my birthday?"

Yeah.

Like, what do I wanna do?

Like, where would I Oh, I don't have to practice?

Mm-hmm.

Like, like my body has taken time to, like, stop gripping of the like, 'cause you wake up as an athlete, and I loved playing.

Like, I had so much joy every day- I stepped on the court.

But, like, you wake up, you're tired, you're achy sometimes.

So you wake up in the morning, and I have that first thought in your head of like, "How am I gonna practice today?"

'Cause sometimes your body's in so much, like, just ache and pain, and you're like, "Okay, we gonna get there.

Like, it'll, you'll warm up."

Yeah.

Yeah, right, right, right.

But, like, that first thought is like .

Mm-hmm.

And so waking up and being like, "Oh, I don't have to today."

But getting my body to, like, actually understand somatically that I can just be.

and I laugh, I laugh about it 'cause there's so much humor, but that's, like, a very real- That is trauma somatic, yeah, getting your system.

That is, yes.

Thank you.

Nope.

No, I just wanna put that out there for you.

We have to laugh, otherwise, yeah.

We have to, or else it'll be just tears.

There's But it is, it is a, a, a s- a form of physical trauma.

Like, you, you are so conditioned to put your body on the line e- every day, even if you don't feel like it, right?

I can't tell you how m- Cramping, sick cra- exactly.

How many colds have you played through?

I just had a, y'all heard me on the last pod.

Y'all, I was sweating bullets.

I sounded stuffed up.

I was terrible.

Like, I was sitting in the comfort of my home.

I was okay.

I can't, I was sitting there thinking, like, number one, I was thinking, "How the hell do people with p- kids do this?"

Shout out all the parents that listen to this pod.

But two, I was thinking, the fact that, one, disgusting, I would go play basketball like this.

Like, we were expected to still play sick- Mm-hmm not well.

and there was also, like, mental issue of if you're not fighting through it, do you really want it?

Yeah.

Like, how much do you really want it?

So I wanna ask you, like- That's the part.

Ooh okay.

Well, get into, that's what I wanna ask you.

Ooh, okay.

Like, get into it- Okay of, like, m- mentally, that shift- Yeah of, I don't know if it's a forgiveness or a, an assurance that you have to give yourself to say, "It's okay that you're not playing basketball, and it doesn't mean or diminish your value any less."

What's that conversation been like for you?

Yeah.

Oof.

God, where do I start?

I think I'm really coming to terms with understanding, like, there's two things about, like, one, our society, which I've known for a while, but as you feel into it is, like, we're taught to, like, chase worthiness, right?

In capitalism, not be enough.

So buy products, do something, be skinny, be fit enough, be whatever, whatever will make you enough in the world.

Like, we're fed- that message every single day.

And then you pour gasoline on top of that message with sport, which is, like, the most - Yep push through, bend but don't break, be mentally resilient, you know, sweat out weakness- tears are pain leaving the body.

Like, all these actually insane things, that when you reach, I think, colle- I think it's starting to happen more in high school, but particularly college and pro level sports, you reach a really high level of doing something.

There reaches a point where it's, there's a reason why you see all the mental health, like, issues in sport, and you see athletes retire and struggle with addiction.

Or anyone who does something to, like, extreme ends, like actors, people who work high-level, stressful corporate jobs- because we're like, we're, what the sport does is, like, ask us to push ourself to the brink, and that's what we celebrate in sport.

That's, I remember Simone Biles sitting out the Olympics and being like was that in 20- 2020?

20?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

When she, because she had the twisties- Right and being like, that was so important to me to see her step out of the sport.

Mm-hmm.

But we celebrate athletes for pushing ourself to the brink.

And like, I hear that sentence back to myself of like, oh, right, we celebrate the fact that we like, do this thing that takes us to a level- Mm-hmm but then I'm the person actually experiencing being taken to the brink.

So what does that mean for my actual body and my actual mind and my actual spirit to be- Mm-hmm taken to the brink?

And so my last year in LA, my body just started to break down.

Mm-hmm.

My body was like, um- What did that look like?

"I'm done."

How did you know?

And it, it looked like my lungs were I was really having, like, a lot of lung issues, which is weird in terms of, it's not weird in hindsight, but like, it's not like an ankle or a knee or like I had- Sure was having some breathing issues, which playing, like, not breathing, our lungs are so important, and I've never had asthma in my life.

I've been able to breathe.

I've been in great condition my entire career, really high level, like high motor player.

and my body was just-- Now I realize it was giving me signals of just like, "Oh, we're just like, so exhausted."

And mentally, I was just hitting the wall, and so that looked like, it just being harder and harder to show up every day.

So it was like that combination of like physical elements showing up, and our lungs also hold a lot of grief, like in Chinese medicine, and that's like the place where r- grief is held and it- shows up and presents.

And so, you're still conditioned in the sport, though I wasn't, like, connecting the dots at the time.

Like, I was like, "I'm having lung issues.

Oh, I had a cold.

You know, how do we treat it so I can get back on the court?"

'Cause the whole mission is, like, play the basketball game.

And LA has phenomenal resources set up.

They do acupuncture, have therapists, like, they do a really good job, but still, I just was at a place where now I realize my body was like It was just tired.

And I feel like I was running out of mental resilience.

When did you connect the dots mentally?

Yeah.

Oof.

More recently, frankly, yeah.

A lot more recently.

I knew it was time to be done, and like, I ended my career.

So after the Olympic break, I didn't-- I played one game after Olympic break in my last season, and I remember being home for Olympic break, and y- they give you a conditioning workout to do, and I remember it was so hard to get through in a way that I'd never Like, I am, like, probably, like, the 1% of mentally tough in the WNBA.

Like, I am- such a tough person.

I've been traded, been cut.

Like, I'm really known for my ability to show up in the midst of like, got traded, can show up, be point guard in 24 hours.

Yeah.

Like, that's insane to do.

It is.

So like, that, like, comes at a cost over time.

Mm-hmm.

And so I was home for the Olympic break, and they gave us the workout, and I was like, "Okay, do the workout."

But I remember it was so hard to get through.

My brother was in town, and he, we were at Cal, went up there to the RSF, and he was like, "Come on, Lay," like, doing something he'd normally do, like, being like- Mm-hmm "Come on, do you want it?"

And I remember just, like, looking at him and being like- No.

"I don't want Yes!"

I was like, "I don't want it."

But like, I couldn't understand- That's funny.

Yeah like, my body- Yeah like, in a new way that was like, I don't care.

Like, that's not motivating me.

Like, I just was like And that's different.

That's much different than, ooh, I'm having a hard day.

Ugh, I don't wanna do- Right this workout, but I know- Yes I need to.

Yes.

Come on, Lay, you got it.

Like, do what you need.

Like, it was almost like it wasn't reaching-- It was reaching dread in a way that I didn't understand that I was dreading getting through that workout.

My body was like, "Please."

Like, it was almost like begging, like, "Please don't make me keep doing this."

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So I got through my workout, went back for camp, did our, you know, second part of training camp basically our Olympic break.

but then just hit the wall so hard mentally, where like that kind of almost dread was like I just couldn't do it anymore.

I was like- Couldn't deny it and, yeah, could not deny it.

So those dots are kind of connecting for me of like, oh, I need to And earlier in that year, I had decided at some point, like, "Oh, this will be my last season."

And I was like, "Oh, I feel joy."

Like, "Okay, I'm gonna just finish out the year."

My body and mind were like, "Girl, no," like, "We're done now."

Right.

Like, we're like, "That was cute.

You thought you were gonna get-" Speed it up.

Wrap it up, Lay.

They're like, "Done."

Wrap it up.

They're like, "We're done."

Yeah, that's-- And I think of when we hear these athletes that have come to points of retirement, I think about Candace Parker's comments on, you know, deciding to retire, and it, there's always some level of, "If I can't give the game what it deserves."

And that's what I hear, is you, you reach a level of you don't want it anymore, which means that the effort required to play this game at a high level, you don't have it.

What it takes to give it.

And you don't have what it takes to give it, and not only do you not have what it takes to give it, you don't wanna go find what it takes to give it.

Right.

Yes.

And that's, that's a whole different thing too, right?

and you have to accept that, but even though you can accept that, that does not necessarily mean that you are ready to accept what comes on the other side of that acceptance.

So after you make this connection and realize, okay, the dread is here.

It's knocked on the door.

Yes.

it would like to be let in.

and you're like, "Okay, I, I cannot do this anymore.

I am going to retire.

This is my..." And you already knew it was gonna be your last season, but you didn't know it was gonna be in this way.

Mm-hmm.

You're now on the other side of this.

How are you already processing next steps?

Be- And I ask this question because we're seeing players who, you know, especially in the midst of-- We're gonna see some players have to come out the league soon now because there's more money and there are new international players So roster spots are gonna be hard to get.

Now good for the league, there are new teams coming.

Yeah.

But it's not gonna be until 2028, so it's still gonna be a little bit- And the talent pool is growing, so it's like- And that talent pool is growing.

So some players that you, you know, we've seen players last, last, last, last, last that might not have been, you know, of Diana Taurasi level, of, of, you know, who else played that long?

Sue Bird level, like people that are in these like- Catch played forever, yeah Catch, right?

These like 15-plus year careers, that's 'cause they were e- excellent, right?

But now you're gonna look at the folks that are in that 10 to 15 year career space, some people are gonna have to make some decisions of do you have the effort?

Do you wanna go find that effort?

'Cause it's gonna take that effort to make a squad these days.

And now the people that are making that decision, they go, "Do I wanna be a coach?

Do I wanna be a broadcaster?

Do I wanna leave all of this behind?

Do I wanna go front office?

Do I wanna go," you know, "Do I wanna go overseas where it's a little bit easier, it's a little bit less of a stressor?"

How, how was that conversation in your mind?

and was it easier because you were already doing some media stuff?

You were one of the very first to be a player and doing some media stuff.

But what was that conversation like?

Yeah, it felt like a really natural fit for me.

Like I did four years with the Pac-12 Network- Mm-hmm back when I was playing and balancing both.

Loved it.

It was like, "Ooh, no one's harassing me.

like I don't have to dribble and watch all the plays and call everything."

Right.

It was like I just get to sit in a chair and do it, like so fun.

it felt like a really natural fit.

I still love the game so much- and so it was like, ooh, now I get to like be a part of it in a new way.

I think that's a conversation so many former players have, like do you stay a part of the game or do you exit stage left?

And so it still felt really good to me to stay a part of the game.

Valkyries came here in the Bay, like we got to work together that first inaugural year.

Mm-hmm.

It was like, ah- Amazing I never even like- Yeah it was like a dream.

It felt like a dream was coming true again.

Like I'd lived a- lifelong dream in the W, and then when I, when I could think about like, oh, what would I want my next career to be, that felt like a really natural fit to me to be a part of media and like be on the storytelling side and the analyst- Mm-hmm side of basketball.

and it also- Did it feel less fulfilling?

It did-- I mean, no.

Nothing will be, nothing like ever replaces basketball.

I think there's- Sure like there's I think there's like just time it takes to mourn and grieve, and I grieved a lot, like a ton.

I remember Candace saying like she couldn't even watch basketball that first year.

Right.

Yep.

And so at times going right into media, you're like, "Oh, I'm watching basketball again," so you're still like so in it and you're still on the same kind of schedule even though-- So my life was still kind of like, oh, I'm on WNBA schedule, but like I was like, ooh, I don't gotta run.

Like training camp came and I was like, I don't have to practice today.

But like camp is happening, so like that felt exciting and really good.

Yeah.

And then I would have grief, so I'd have waves of like, oh, I miss playing, and I would just sit with that.

And people are like, "Why don't you play pickup or do this?"

I was like, "Girl, it's not-" It's not the same.

"No, it's, it's not the same.

I don't wanna play pickup."

Yeah.

"I'm, be fighting with some dude at the rec gym," like no.

Like it's just grief.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think there's just like the reality of like to do something, like to live a dream, any dream that you've ever lived or reach a goal, and then it to be over, right?

Life comes in cycles.

Like everything will end in life at some point- some cycle.

So like I just was going through the grief cycle of like I did something so beautiful that I loved for years, and like it's over now.

And so it was that holding both the joy and like the grief, the real like one of- Oof the great loves of my life- Mm-hmm I f- I lost.

Like it was- Mm-hmm mourning.

And- I w- I w- Yeah if I could ask about the layers of grief, because there's the grief of the basketball, the experience of playing basketball, but there's also the grief of your identity as a basketball player.

And you know what's interesting?

I ain't you, Lay.

I ain't play multiple years in the W, but people think I do all the time.

I'll be in the airport and people will be like, "You play ball?"

Be like, "Yeah."

"What'd you play?"

I'd just be like, "Yeah."

And I- Atlanta I even-- Right.

Right.

I'm always in Atlanta.

You give me Atlanta Airport, right?

You give me Atlanta.

oh my God, do I?

Yeah.

Thank you.

I don't know why, but thank you.

there is, there is a small tinge of me, I always say used to.

I had to work to that- to get to the point that I'm like, "Used to."

And I'm a grown woman, y'all.

It's been a while since I played basketball.

But even so, it's like there's this little, I don't know, it's like a little tension of I used to play ba- I am a ball player.

I play ball but I'm not a ball player in the sense that you can't see me play anymore.

Yeah.

What does that mean for me?

Ooh, what does it?

That's me as a person- Yeah.

I don't know that was a college basketball player.

Now trust me, a- again, my grief period was significantly shorter, okay?

So I just wanna put that out there.

I cannot even imagine what that must have felt like for you in people wanting to know what your next step is, who you are now that you're not a point guard in the WNBA.

What was that grief period like for both the basketball on the court, but also grieving this version of who you are externally to the world as a basketball player?

Oh my God, you're such a good interviewer.

Oh my God, thank you.

We are just hyping me up.

Yes.

Period.

Oh, it was, I would say ongoing really.

Um- Mm-hmm but I think you made the really good example on the point, it's like you do it your whole life, and I think I thought it wouldn't be as difficult as it was because I go to therapy, been in therapy for years.

I talk about identity.

I've had injuries where I've been forced to think about basketball and my identity differently.

Like when I've been out- Yeah I've been like, "Ooh, okay, basketball, like I see you."

Like I, I did a lot of work while I was playing- Yeah around identity and basketball, so I think I, I didn't realize it would be this hard 'cause I wasn't like this athlete just on autopilot who's like, "Ball is life," and like- Mm-hmm I'm throwing trashcans after games.

Like I had - I feel like I had perspective while I played.

Like I could still have joy after playing a basketball game.

Joy is what helped me play.

I broadcasted.

I did like other things while I played also.

So I really tried to form my identity like as a holistic athlete, not only that.

That does not matter.

Like that was like- Yeah like I made the choice to end my career.

Yes, my lungs flare, you know?

So like I was under the illusion or maybe the just I didn't have experience to know that no matter what happens, you won a championship, you won your very last basketball game, you ended on a career ending, like it got taken from you, like either way, it will end- and that will be hard.

Mm-hmm.

Like it's coming for every single athlete like that.

I remember Sue talking about it like, "Father Time comes for us all.

It does not matter."

And I found some solace in that at some point, being like, oh, like watching the league still happening and being like, oh, I'm not a part of it anymore, and missing community.

Like that was one of the biggest griefs for me was like I just missed my teammates, and I missed being on a team, and I missed my sisters.

That hurt.

Like that- That hurt even more than playing some days- Yes of like running up and down, I was like, damn, I just miss the locker room.

Like I miss my homies.

Like I just That grief was so painful and deep and like- Mm-hmm there's just a mourning there where like you're not with your people anymore.

It's like- Yeah the little mundane bus rides, the plane rides.

Like you get the locker room moments, you're getting taped, and like you start playing a silly game or hanging with the trainer.

Like that community and joy, like that is where I find so much beauty.

Yeah.

And, that was hard to just not be like Rachel Banham's like one of my closest homies, like Elizabeth Williams, like people I'd see when they'd come into town, but like- Yeah you're not with your friends anymore.

Like I just miss my friends.

And it's, it's, yeah, and it's ripped away in such a fashion that it can be whiplash disorienting.

Like the idea that-- You know, I'll give you guys a perfect example.

When Lay came to join the Valkyries broadcast, last year I mean, we all joined.

We were all new.

But when I found out that Lay was like doing it and I was gonna be with them, and I was like, oh, this is cool.

And I could-- I remember like loving the days that I was paired up with Lay because we would be in the, you know, our version of a green room watching film and like talking about stuff- Yeah and I felt like I was back with my teammates.

And I vividly remember first few weeks of working with Lay being way too comfortable, way too comfortable, like just making jokes and saying things that I'm like, "This is your coworker, and you have never played a day of basketball with her."

But it felt like we played, yeah.

We got the vibe.

Like they don't know you.

Like, but it, but I felt this familiarity with you, automatically, and I felt the same way.

I remember I was having an interview with Kate Martin after they had clinched, playoffs, and we were in the back, in the back hall of, Chase Center.

And this was off camera.

This is, you know, off, you know, after we had finished the interview, and I am ki-ki-ki-kiin' with Kate Martin, and I, I remember like laughing and like touching her arm, and I was like, "Oh my God, I don't know you like that.

I'm so sorry."

But Kate reminded me so much of one of my other teammates from college at like, as she was going on back and forth, and there was just this familiarity.

And it makes me think you said something about how w-we need a communal group for people that are former athletes, especially if you're not in the same space of your former athletes, because it is a s- like it's a bond, it's a sisterhood that is so irreclicable, replicable.

Woo.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

That, that word wanted to kick my butt today.

it is so hard to replicate it anywhere.

And so what would that, if you could create that group, what would you call it?

What, what kind of-- What would the meetings look like?

God.

Oh, my AA for athletes?

Yes.

My recovery?

Yeah.

Yes.

Oh, and I don't say that lightly for anyone who struggles with addiction.

Yes.

I say that like very poignantly of like that's how it feels.

Like- Mm-hmm like leaving the sport was like, oh, I, I need like a recovery program.

Mm-hmm.

So there's two things.

I think there's one of like the humor and the joy we could talk about of this side of like what it would look like to show up to the meeting and be like, "Hi, my name's Layshia."

Like, and everyone's like, "Hi, Layshia."

"Hi, Layshia."

"I played sports for 12 years, and I-" Yep.

Yep.

but I think in the very like, I don't even say serious 'cause for humor for me, for people listening, like humor and so many p-people who've been oppressed, like that is our joy.

That's how our catharticism- Yeah like that's how we work through it.

So I don't want people to think I take it lightly, but understand like the humor is the medicine.

Mm-hmm.

And so, when you're done playing, there's like this-- I think I've heard people talk about in the military similarly, like the way you're just like so conditioned as an athlete, that's hard to like unlearn.

Mm-hmm.

That feels like a need recovery.

So it's like, one, you don't have to finish everything in life.

Like I've been trained my entire life, like I've almost had to learn how to quit.

Like I- Wow you know?

Like- Yeah as an athlete, it's like never quit, push through.

Like- Feel that your body wants to stop, and then your brain tell your body, "No, we're not gonna stop.

We're gonna keep going."

And there's a level of, like, discipline that the average person sure could use of like- Yeah you know, learn how to, like, play a sport in middle school so you can learn discipline.

Like, that's not what we're talking about.

Those are great life skills for kids to have.

Yeah.

Right.

We're talking about doing it at an extreme level that is, like, actually traumatic to tell your- Pushing through pain, pushing through, like Oh, yeah.

Injuries.

Injuries, yeah.

To override your system, to override- Mm-hmm your intuition, to override your body saying, "Please take a break," and you being like, "Uh, I hear you, but I'm trained to, like, push through and have mental resilience."

So learning-- Like, I remember the very first time, this is while I was still playing, I went to a yoga class, and they were saying you could stop at any time.

You could go into child's pose, and I remember how- Oh my gosh transformative that- This is such a good example was for me.

Like- Yes I, I, like, struggled to be like, "No, I can't-" Yes "because that's not what we do," and it's like I remember, like, leaning back and, like, almost testing it out, and my nervous system being like, "Yeah, you could take a break."

And then, like, doing yoga more and more makes me think of, like, Mo Billings, probably how healthy it is that she's, like, a player like her.

Mm-hmm.

They're implementing this kind of wellness more, but for me, I think this was, like, 2018, maybe '19, the very first time ever, ever in my entire life that I knew it was okay to stop- in terms of something having to do with my body and playing a sport.

Oh.

What?

Are you okay?

I'm okay.

Okay.

And it just makes me think, I remember directly after graduation, I went to go visit a girlfriend of mine that played lacrosse at Yale, and she was telling me she had always been, like, someone that struggled with the conditioning test.

They had to run, like, a ridiculous long distance, whatever, but in a ridiculous time for the lacrosse team, and sh- I remember she told me she was going on a run, and knowing what I know about this friend, I was like, "You going on a run for fun?

Like, what's going on?"

And she was like, "I don't have a time to meet."

"I can just run slow."

And I was like, that concept blew my mind.

I can just run slow.

We have never heard the word run and slow together.

Like, they were distant cousins.

No, it's a beep test.

They were- It's like run connected to you better make this time- Correct or you're in trouble.

What?

And so this, I love this, and I, I wanna use it to kind of round out this conversation.

This realization that there is life beyond basketball, and there is-- and it's not just beyond dribbling a basketball and being in the, on the court and being in the locker room and being on the buses and being in the, the midst of the world of women's basketball.

There is a life beyond just the identity tied to basketball.

What-- How did you get to your you can run slow moment or you can go into child's pose moment?

How did you make this decision today to say, "You know what?

I'm just gonna take a pause and step away"?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Ooh, I don't know that it was one exact, like, you know, movie moment where I, like, remembered and I journaled at that time.

Yeah.

Yep.

But it was a cumulative effect of, just internal healing that I've been doing, like, and reflecting.

It's been that yoga moment back in the 2018 to fast forwarding to- Mm-hmm you know, finishing my career, not finishing every game.

Like, that to me was like quitting, and I kind of actually took quitting as a badge of honor at the end of my career, even though it was hard.

Like, I was like, "Oh yeah, like, I didn't finish."

Like, I kinda like, what does that mean to not finish?

And so it's, like, all these cumulative small moments, realizing I- I've loved the broadcasting, but the lifestyle is really difficult, and now I'm kinda found myself in the same lifestyle that I've existed in for 12 years.

Like, I was like, "Oh, this is familiar, getting on an airplane, traveling."

Like, I was like- Yep I'm not playing, but I seem to be doing- Still studying tape, still watching tape, still getting notes right.

It's very similar.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It kind of like I didn't realize at the time when I entered broadcasting, but it kind of ended up being an off-ramp for me to playing.

Like, a, like, it helped me, like, soothe the, like, oh, it's over, like, transition, and I think, like, as you're driving on a freeway, like, you kinda start to slow down and you're getting off the ramp, and my nervous system is coming down.

Yeah.

And so I think it just, I've, like, pulled over finally and got off the freeway and got off the ramp, and I'm like, oh yeah, I don't, I don't have to keep staying in the same kind of hamster wheel is what it felt like for me, like, the grind of the industry, and I started to question, like, you know, my goals.

Like, do I wanna be the best broadcaster again?

And I always wanna be good at what I do, but, like, back to that question of, like, giving it what it takes.

So I asked myself that every year I played, like, "Do you have what it takes?"

And if I didn't, I wouldn't play.

So every year I was like, "Yeah, like, I have what it takes to train.

I'm gonna put in.

Like, I'm not, I don't steal money from the league or players.

Like, I, I, like, go about it the right way."

And then I start to look at, like, oh, what's your goal in broadcasting?

Do you wanna be the next best broadcaster?

Like, in terms of, like And I kinda was like, oh, you've already kind of reached the pinnacle in this field in that way to me.

Like, in basketball, I've reached the top already.

Mm-hmm.

So I kinda was looking around of, like, you wanna be good at what you do, but you don't necessarily feel the fuel, like the fire to be, like, like you're on your career chase right now.

Like, Zina, you're about to be- Yeah, right like, one of the best.

Like, you- Mm-hmm.

And I love that for you and seeing how much you're growing, and, like, you're on your grind right now.

Like, you're in your, like- Thanks, friend yeah, training camp, like, you have to get, you know, contract, you know, all that stuff that you're in right now- that I kinda looked back and was like, "Yeah, I did that."

Like, why am I doing it again?

Like, you don't have to.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, I was like, "Wait."

Yeah, and, and the, and the-- what I love about this and why I say, you know, I started the show saying I'm so proud of you is that it's hard to get to this point, and this ain't just a basketball conversation.

It's hard to get to this point in any concept.

People that start new careers, people that decide to go back to school, people that, you know, decide to become entrepreneurs and open up a new business, like, their own business.

Like, every- there's so many ways in which this manifests itself, and that decision- to choose yourself and ask yourself those questions is so, so important, but it's also really hard.

Mm-hmm.

Like, people don't wanna face who they are without the structure, and that was why I opened it the way I opened it, is that that's something I'm learning now.

I'm having to create this own- my own calendar and be on top of things and, you know, there's not a, there's not a way for me to measure am I good at my job in the way that, like, a bonus could or a promotion could before, right?

and that's really, really tough.

W- I can't evo- only imagine it's even tougher as an athlete where you don't have, it's-- there's no playing time to be measured by anymore, right?

Right.

There's no- Like, how many games did I get this year?

Or like- How many games did I get?

Yeah.

It's a tough industry.

You know, did I, did I, did I get a full con- time contract this year?

Like, did I do You know what I mean?

Like, I-- So the fact that you are asking yourself these questions and you're putting up these parameters yourself, bravo.

Thank you.

Like, and bravo to everyone that's doing it, that, that's at home doing that.

I wanna close- It's partly- Yeah, go ahead.

Oh, that's partly why I w- I wanted to share as kind of an offering for people to say- Yeah like, yeah, that it's just time for me to, like, choose myself and heal outside of basketball.

Like, that was my, like, landing moment was like, "Oh, okay, I've learned this sport.

I've been conditioned my entire life," and everyone's been conditioned their entire life, whether you've played the sport or not, like, to chase the worthiness, the enough-ness.

Yeah.

And then the landing enough in my body and my system, like, the offering of, like, slowing down enough to say, like, "Oh, I, I get to heal now.

I get to, like, take some space and, like, rest and heal and, like, also recover from the burnout."

There's so often we, like, burn out and then we don't have the time, space, maybe energy, maybe money and resources.

Maybe we have the money and resources, but, like, because of identity, like, we're not ready to let go yet.

And so there's a lot of reasons why we don't step back.

And so through a lot of, like, internal healing, I can see now, like, oh, I'm ready to like, yeah- Learn a different path like choose, choose myself.

Yeah.

And so it's- Yes okay to choose yourself.

Yeah.

Well, Lay, thank you so much, for just taking the time to walk us through this.

I, I, I feel like I, I know a fraction of this, but I know so many people that are listening are always curious, you know, what happens to players and how do they make these type of re- retirement decisions or, what is going on.

Right now we're seeing a lot of players be broadcasters in the midst of their season.

And like, yes, people, this is-- These are people that are prepping for the next step.

They're exploring, "Is this something I wanna do?

Is this..." You know, I know some folks have comments about, like, a player commenting on the players that they're playing against right now.

That's weird, da, da.

It's like this is an opportunity for people to learn who they are outside of just being on the court and being basketball players.

And I, and I said just, and I don't wanna say just.

I wanna say outside of being that for the l- long periods of time that they have, you know, and explore other options.

And so you've explored and you've, you've done the thing, you've explored, and right now you're gonna take a pause.

And that's not to say you ain't gonna be back.

I am praying for that.

But that is just to say- It's okay to evolve and change.

It's exactly right.

Yeah.

That's exactly right.

That's exactly right.

So thank you so much, and I really wish you all of the best.

We all wish you, uh- Thank you all the best.

If you guys- Hey could read some of the messages that we had to Lay in our group chat, like, we are all honored that you were part of our show, even for this short period of time.

And yeah, you made us better, so thank you.

Loved the emails and the like, yes, our comments in our group chat.

Oh, I remember saying really early on about, like, teammates, like we were group chat- Mm-hmm and I was like, "Kinda feels like a team again," like- Exactly in like a small way.

Like I was like, "Oh," we had the dinner in Phoenix.

I was like, "Do I have teammates?"

I kinda was almost like- I know sheepish.

I was like- Yeah "Are you guys my, are you team?"

Are you colleagues?

No, we're not colleagues.

We're teammates.

Like- We're teammates.

Yeah.

Um- Yeah but I, all, to all the fans listening, I have, like, so appreciate all the comments, like, written in and the emails and our producer, like, forwards them to us and it's been a joy, so- Yeah thank you.

Yes.

All on the same page with that.

We'll be missing you.

Big shoes to fill, but we appreciate you.

All right.

On the other side of this thing, we got one more thing.

Of course Lay has to leave on a bang.

Don't go anywhere.

All right.

We gotta close this puppy out.

We don't have too much time.

We talked a lot today.

We did.

We covered a lot.

I think it was a great show, but you have one more thing that you want to touch on before we head on out of here.

Because this is your last show, that means we're not gonna have you at the end of the WNBA season.

So let's just go ahead and skip forward.

What do you think is gonna be the final matchup for the WNBA- Ooh finals this year, and who do you think is gonna win it?

Ooh.

I got, I got- Based on what you've seen this year.

I got the Valkyries going deep this year.

Yeah.

Okay.

Nakisi- Deep like how?

Ooh, are they gonna go to the finals?

I'm gonna say they're gonna finals.

Ooh!

Oh.

They're definitely semis- You better drop the mic- but I'm gonna just go on the way out.

Yeah.

The way Gabby's playing.

It's their depth for me, like their bench depth, their, well, defense, number one.

Yeah.

They play defense.

Defense, number one for sure.

Actually, number one is culture 'cause their culture s- is very, has been very clear from day one.

Mm-hmm.

Nakisi's been clear.

So culture, then it's their defense on the court.

Yeah.

'cause woo, like holding Atlanta under season average is like high level octane teams.

And then it's Gabby Williams' offense, playing the way she does, and like when I was at the game and Kayla Thornton just standing in the corner, I'm like, I love this for Kayla, like not beating up her body.

Like- Yeah Kayla's like in there like waiting to hit a three, like yep, you got it.

Yep.

Like so seeing the toll that their players took last year- Ronika Burton having to like beat her body up so much every time last year getting to the rim, like- Mm-hmm the, they've spread out the like accumulative effect on the team and like- So I, yeah, the way they run their system, I think they're a team p- Benches get a lot shorter in the playoffs, but I'd be curious about the Valkyries being a team that could still potentially, like, keep that a bit stretched.

Mm-hmm.

ooh, who are they gonna play against?

I feel like it has to be New York or the Aces.

I'd be wild if neither of them were in the finals.

Well, yeah, I feel the same.

I feel the same.

They are- But Atlanta's-- I'm not, I'm not gonna give up on Atlanta going deep yet.

First and foremost, you- What?

tripping if you're looking at Atlanta before you look at Minnesota.

I'm sorry, but- Forgot about Minnesota entirely I know.

Okay, see this is, this is what- Oh, Lord this is what Cheryl Reeve expe- experiences every year, right?

Because they're too good.

'Cause they're too good.

They're just consistent.

Well, it is important to know- Okay, now I talked about it right before to, to close this out, I love that hot take, by the way.

But to close this out, we did get a, Napheesa Collier and Dorka Juhsz, injury update that was, re-released.

She has-- Napheesa Collier has officially returned to team practice activities and is progressing as expected in her rehab from off-season surgeries on both her right and left ankles.

so her recor- return to the court is imminent.

so that's Napheesa.

And then Dorka is in, in as well as team practice activities as well.

Let me just get that really quickly.

She's returned to team practice activities and continues to progress as expected.

Ooh.

So those two are waiting in the wings of this Lynx team.

Is it m- is it the Lynx year to win one?

'Cause as they've been- I know.

Yeah.

I know.

Saw that.

So- 'Cause that's how you end up taking them for granted.

It's like they get there, they get there, and you're like, "Yeah, they're really good.

I talk about them a lot.

I love them."

But then it's like almost like the bar for them is, like, getting over the hump of actually winning another title.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the bar is higher 'cause they're very good.

I would go ahead and say my four, I mean, I guess- Yeah, like your final four yeah.

They're so nice.

My final four I would say New York, Aces, Lynx, Valkyries.

Well, that would be my Yeah.

But the team that I would be like, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, I wouldn't put the Dream right behind- I might put in the end the Valkyrie.

I would put the Wings.

I would put the Wings.

We'll see, though.

It's a long season ahead.

Ooh.

But now you get to enjoy it.

I'm gonna be like, "I can guest come on."

No, you gotta go home.

You got-- You better go heal.

No, I'm joking.

you can come whenever you want, you know that.

The door is always open.

But we do, we do appreciate you for the work and the effort and the energy and everything that you have brought to this show, and we wish you the best on this healing journey.

and we won't bother you.

I can't promise, I can't bo- I won't bother you personally, but- Okay we won't bother you too much.

I say that on behalf of everyone on this show, thank you, Lay.

And on behalf of The Athletic, on behalf of Layla Clarendon for the last time, I'm Zena Kada thanking you all for listening, and we will see you next time.

No Off Season is hosted by Zena Kada, with Chantel Jennings, Sabrina Merchant, Layla Clarendon, and Annie Costable.

It's produced by Tanika Burrell.

Our executive producer is Andrea B. Scott.

Monica Compton is our video editor.

Our theme music is by Marcus Pagala.

Shannon Ryan is managing editor of Women's Basketball at The Athletic.

Be sure to like and subscribe.

We drop new episodes every Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday.

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