Giants Talk: How San Francisco reached a new low in series sweep vs. D-backs
"Giants Talk" hosts Cole Kuiper and Alex Pavlovic react to San Francisco's sweep vs. the Arizona Diamondbacks and weigh the possibility of a rebuild.
Giants Talk: How San Francisco reached a new low in series sweep vs. D-backs originally appeared on NBC Sports Bay Area
Video Transcript
Hey, what's up Giants fans?
Welcome to another episode of Giants Talk.
I'm Cole Kuiper here with Giants insider Alex Pavlovic.
The Giants get swept by the Snakes, killing all positive momentum and turning our upbeat attitude last episode into a painful memory.
We're gonna start out hot with this one on today's episode of Giants Talk.
Before we get started, Giants Talk is presented by Mancini's Sleepworld.
Mancini's is now the official sleep partner of the San Francisco Giants.
Get moving towards better sleep and save up to $1,200 on top brands at the Mancini's Memorial Day Sale.
We're talking Beauty Sleep queen mattresses starting at $299, and Tempur-Pedic starting at $29 a month.
Stop by or visit online to see what's currently available.
Okay, Alex.
Giants get swept for the fourth time this year.
obviously Yankees opening weekend, that brutal Phillies double header, and then back to back sweeps with the Rays immediately after that one.
They all feel bad, but this one was extra I mean, I'm sure in the moment all those other three were, were extra brutal, but oof, this one took the wind out of my sails.
You know, just as you list them, obviously the Yankees one starts the year.
Um- Mm-hmm the Phillies one includes that double header.
The Rays one comes on the heels of that Phillies one and makes it, like one of the worst road trips ever.
So there's been some impressive sweeps here.
Yeah.
Uh- I, I looked it up.
The 2021 team got swept twice.
That even surprises me a little bit.
That was, that was an incredible team.
It felt like they'd, they'd never lost more than two games in a row, so.
Yeah.
It's- yeah.
It's real awful because of how we went into the last podcast, how energy was high.
Maybe deceptively, maybe we were fooling ourselves, but it, it's not like they're losing these games just barely.
If things were going right, and then I- it's, it's ugly baseball, Alex.
Yeah.
I think what we talked about in the last podcast a lot, m- I think what you're referring to is, like this is the easiest part of their schedule that they have.
Yes.
And this is the time where if you felt like this group, which you can say whatever you want about this group, it is still a talented roster.
Like there's, there are holes here.
There's a lot of holes here, but position player wise especially, it's still a talented roster.
And to score eight runs in three games in Arizona, that's Like I, I This was a series where I, I think it comes down to, like this is basically the way I feel about the whole season.
We, we will- Mm-hmm talk about everything else that goes on.
We will talk about the bullpen.
People talk about Tony.
I was listening.
I had a long drive home yesterday through tr- midday traffic and I'm like, let me just flip back and forth between the two local radio stations here and, and hear what, what people are talking about.
There's so many different things that they focus on, which is I get.
Like, this boils down to the Giants are not scoring enough runs and- Yes our key guys are not doing enough.
And you know, I know Willy hit a couple homers.
Devers has been better in May, but they're without Elliot right now.
They were without Jung Hoo Lee in this series.
Chapman is still not really Matt Chapman.
So this basically boils down to this lineup is not, not scoring enough runs.
And I think in that series, like even We'll get to all the details, but even in the, in the walk-off loss, like you're kind of just sitting there the whole time going, "Can you add on?
Can you add on?"
'Cause this bullpen is hanging by a thread.
Yes.
And this is a- They score three all at once.
Yeah.
You know?
It spreading it out a little, get more.
It- It's a bad bullpen on the other side.
Mm-hmm.
Like, can you, can you score a couple runs so you're not asking this bullpen, which has its own issues, to try to hold a two run lead?
and oh, by the way, like, can someone ever hit, like a three run homer?
Does it- seems like, you know, there was the Bader grand slam, but other than that it seems like almost every home run recently has been a solo shot and, um- Absolutely.
There'll be these games where the team racks up like 10 hits- Yeah and then just hits like one or two solo home runs.
Yeah.
And it's like, where were all the base runners when, when the home runs happened?
So you watch, like, you know, you just kind of see the other side of it in this series, which is mostly Marte.
but it, I, I just think everything is always gonna come down to Currently they have, they're missing a couple guys, but they do have their big guys healthy.
Mm-hmm.
And it's gonna come down to those guys.
Like they haven't Marte basically single-handedly took this He didn't single-handedly get a sweep.
He single-handedly gave them a series win.
Like it's- Yes.
And they haven't had that.
Like they haven't It's one thing Rich and I were talking about earlier in the post-game show is like, can you off the top of your head think of like any t- any times this year where you're like, "That dude carried the Giants for four days"?
Like, Raffy Devers did three homers in four days and won a couple games because of it.
Yeah.
they have some guys who have put up numbers more recently.
I mean, Casey has put up numbers the whole year.
He's done a great job.
Devers and Adames have in May put up numbers, but they haven't had a stretch And, and even if you go back to like last August, you can point to when they finally got going and we start going like, "Huh, are they gonna chase down the Mets?"
It was pretty clear, like Adames and Devers every single night were doing enough to, to win them these games.
I just don't, I don't wanna call them empty numbers, but it does feel like a little empty calories sometimes.
Like- Yeah I, I look at some of these May numbers and go like, "Ah, but did that win you many games?"
Like did you You know, Raffy Devers even better in May.
I can't really think of that many big hits you've had though.
Like- Mm-hmm when you've come up with- two on and a chance to really break the game open.
So that's for me what this comes down to is, like, they continue to be that team and, they've been that team the entire year.
And, you know, you look at the heart here and you look at who's, who's gonna Who is gonna k- who is gonna Ketel Marte their way to one of these series.
Like, they just haven't done it.
Yeah.
The offense is clearly the biggest issue, but I wanna throw starting pitching under the bus real quick, because it's harder to have those- Throw everybody.
It's, well, that's the problem about this year.
There's really not one element going right.
Yeah.
So it's, it's hard to have those big moments.
The home runs feel a little watered down.
When you give up runs in the first inning every single game of the series, even if it's just one, you're setting the tone early and the, the team, the already struggling offense, is then playing catch-up from, for immediately from the first inning on.
This is a, a rough time for Giants fans.
This is a rough day for you to podcast, and I will My only response to that will be do not under any circumstances look at what Kyle Harrison did yesterday and what he- Oh, no continues to do, so.
Oh, no.
All right, we're, we're gonna- Yeah.
We are gonna I'm deleting remembering some guys from- All right our schedule today.
Uh-oh.
let's talk Robbie Ray if we're gonna talk pitching.
Robbie Ray has the worst outing of his Giants career on Monday, and I actually combed through his entire 12-year career, and I think you could make the almost guaranteed argument that it is the worst start of his entire career.
There was one game that was a little fewer innings and a little fewer runs that's probably comparable with the Tigers, but this is, this is the worst he's been.
Yeah, he's just been off.
you never wanna have the start where afterwards you're wondering if, if you're tipping pitches 'cause it's- Mm-hmm it's so bad.
and maybe he is.
I, I think even, you know, the last time I saw him live, I think, don't remember where.
This all blends together.
Maybe in Los Angeles.
Like, he, he felt off there as well.
Mm-hmm.
yeah, Los Angeles.
So he, he's, he's been off a little bit.
I think, you know, the first thing that pops to my head is, is w- we're doing a lot of big picture stuff now and a lot of, like, what's next?
And you hate to see a couple guys in the series get rocked who are potentially trade chips.
Oh, yeah.
So if you're Oh, yeah.
I'm sure that's not what Robbie was thinking about or what anyone in that clubhouse was thinking about.
the other thing that popped in my head was, like, Tony really stretches these guys out a little bit and- Mm-hmm he does not really seem to care if a guy's gonna wear it.
So- Yeah that, that was one where I'm like, "Get him out of here after, like," I don't know.
Pretty early on you're like, "This is not his day," so.
You know, I have noticed that in some of the games over the past years against the Dodgers, that Dave Roberts just leaves guys out there to take the heat.
Yeah.
and I don't know that I hate it.
No, I don't either.
It's funny.
Like, the old way of doing it was, you know, get a fresh arm in here.
And even, like, the, like, during the previous regime's time, like, they, they would've been, "Get a fresh arm," you know.
But I, I, I think we've The Dodgers do that a lot.
It's like, "You're gonna wear this, bud.
Like, we're not-" Yeah. "
we're not making a roster move tomorrow."
Yeah.
So.
And this wasn't quite to that extent, but it, Tony does stretch his starters out a little bit, um- Mm-hmm in general.
And this felt like one of those where it's like, eh, Robbie probably could have taken the six earned- Yeah and walked away.
But yeah.
Robbie- Not, not great.
Robbie Ray ends up going just over four innings, nine earned runs, 11 hits.
I popped this in here.
Robbie Ray starts and Logan Webb starts.
The two guys coming into the season who were not co-aces, but the ace and the, the king if you're, if you're gonna keep with the playing card analogy.
Giants are 6 and 12 during starts of theirs.
So if you even flip those numbers, 12 and 6, we're, we're looking at not quite 500, but it's much closer.
Yeah.
To your earlier point, and it's something we've talked about a lot, like, there's, there is nothing this team can hang their hat on.
Yes.
for a while it was like, you know, at least Landon Rupp, you, you win those games.
I don't The closest thing they have right now is, like, Trevor McDonald.
You- Yeah you get those games.
So, yeah, they, they don't even, they don't even win the ace games.
I mean, Logan was a problem early.
Obviously, he was hurt.
Mm-hmm.
Then Robbie more recently.
But yeah, it's You look at it and you go, like, "Well, Logan will be back next week," and you have Logan and Robbie and Landon Rupp and Trevor McDonald, and you can't even really count on that.
So- Yeah that's a It is not a whole lot to hang your hat on.
Tuesday's game was a loss of a different flavor.
Of course, Giants had the lead going into the ninth.
But over the last two innings, the eighth and ninth, the bullpen just kind of crumbled.
Yeah.
fourth loss when leading after the seventh.
This, the bullpen was an issue we knew going into this season.
Do you feel like they are performing at where we expected?
Are they even arguably performing better than we expected considering where we went into the season and it just stings because bullpen losses, I don't know, showcase a little more than others?
Yeah, I actually think at times they've been really good.
you know, you, you go back to, like, kind of before that road trip.
I remember writing about it.
Like, they were the best bullpen in baseball for like- Mm-hmm two, three weeks.
And you look at Like, you almost wanna get, you know, you wanna find one, one I think our concept in the spring was like can you find one guy to add to this late inning mix?
I do think they've maybe found two in Killian and, and Winn.
Like, there's been some wobbles, but I, in general, both those guys have thrown really well.
Matt Gage-I'm just gonna tip my hat.
The other Like, that wasn't a bad pitch.
Um- Yeah he's been part of some, some rough ones lately, but in general, Mac H. has pitched very well.
So they've This has kind of been what we expected.
I think at times better than we expected.
But the problem with the bullpen, and the problem the Giants are gonna have, and the problem Buster Posey is gonna have is this is not second-guessing.
This is everybody in the world, including us in the off-season, was saying, "What are you What, what are you doing here?"
Like, what's- Yeah.
Get a guy.
You know, and even I, I think I was, like, on the far extreme end of being optimistic that Ryan Walker could figure it out, because relievers do that, and they come back the next year.
And I could piece together in my head, like, what, what it looked like if, if a Keaton Wynn figured it out.
Or, you know, you add someone to that mix and Walker was better, and you have Eric, you have Eric Miller and, I still was like, "You're one You're at least one guy short."
And- Yeah I think they have kind of ended up being one guy short.
Like, they Whether it's Tyler Rogers, who just pitches the eighth every night, and you're piecing together the ninth, not piecing together the sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, or whether it was an actual closer there, and you don't have to worry about that.
I, I don't think it matters regardless.
I do think, like, some of these guys have actually been okay in, you know, in the ninth inning when they throw them out there.
So they're just one They're, they're more than one guy short, but they're really one guy short, like, in terms of this could've been, I think, leagues better if there was one reliable guy back there.
'cause they've been put in the spot where they're just piecing it together every single night.
I don't I think Tony in general has done a good job in the bullpen.
I don't love he has this trend, and he's had it the whole year, of trying to stretch guys beyond an inning and, like- Yeah so-and-so comes in and finishes the sixth, and then comes out for the seventh, and then this next guy finishes the seventh.
Yeah.
Comes out for the eighth.
Like, you go three outs, but they're incongruous outs.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's, it's why I never I'm pretty old school in this respect of, like, I, I know everyone always likes to go, you know, managers will say, "I can go by committee.
I have good arms down there.
Everyone can do every role."
I've just spent too much time around really good relievers over the years.
Yeah.
And, covered them, covered them winning World Series, covered them in ba- in bad years, done TV with them, and just talked to them, and they just hate that stuff.
And it, you can say- I'm gonna pep- I'm gonna jump ahead and pepper in a mailbag question for you, Alex.
Okay.
Listener Brandon said, "I've noticed Vitello seems to like to have bullpen pitchers pitch multiple innings.
Thought it was believed that once bullpen pitchers sit in between innings, it's better to bring out a new guy.
Is this a common college thing or a new trend happening around baseball?
With a struggling and inexperienced bullpen, I wonder if having them pitch in a more orthodox way would be beneficial for the Giants."
Yeah, it's exactly what I'm hitting on.
I don't, you know, having gone through his Tennessee game logs, I just think you can go to the beginning of this year, this is what he's done.
And it's just something relievers don't like.
And, you know, this current group, they're not gonna grumble a whole lot right now.
They're all happy with the opportunities.
But they don't like it.
And also, if you just think about it from a physical standpoint, like, these guys get jacked the F up to pitch that one inning.
Yeah.
Then they sit down, and you never know how long you're gonna be sitting there or standing there in the dugout.
could be 10 minutes that you're standing there while the Giants load the bases and don't score .
And then you, you come back out and it's like, ramp it back up.
Yeah.
there's a reason teams try to find, like, a seven, eight, nine guy.
And even if you can't find that, like, I just don't think he gives his guys fresh innings enough, and that would be my one main quibble with him from his bullpen manager.
You know, he does a good job of finding the right match-ups for the most part.
I just feel like they stretch it out and, and he could rightfully respond that, like, "Hey, I don't have, I don't have the arms down there to just feel comfortable.
And we're trying to do this, and we're trying to exploit match-ups."
To me, that's just really stood out the entire year that they've been trying to wrap around these innings, and lately I think you've seen that.
Even in some times where they've gotten away with it, you've seen guys get out of one inning, come out for the next and struggle, and somebody else has to come and, and save them.
So that would be my bullpen thing is, like- Yeah I wish he would go a little more traditional and just, you know.
I Would they have won a few of these games if it was just like, "Keaton Wynn, you have the eighth.
Caleb Kilian, you have the ninth.
And that's We don't care who's on the other side."
Mm-hmm.
"This is just how teams do it.
Like, you're my eighth inning guy, you're my ninth inning guy."
It's, it's the kind of thing that becomes almost a self-fulfilling issue.
Because like you just said, once the first guy gets wrapped around and starts to struggle, then you're forced to make another switch in between innings.
Yeah.
I mean, in Tuesday's game it looked like the moves were brilliant at first.
Caleb Kilian came in and got the much needed double play to end the Yep.
Well, it was a bases loaded situation, right?
Nolan Arenado, the guy who just you count on to kill the Giants, they get out of it.
And then next inning he crumbles and they have to make another switch again.
just brutal the way it turned out.
But actually didn't hate the management there.
Just looking back on it, it's easy to, to pick on that.
Yeah.
I think it's not as much You know, I A lot was made of this on social media.
I don't, I don't love turning Marte around, but it's, it is what it is.
I, you know, the num- numbers tell a story, but they I'm sure they had some scouting report that they felt good about Gage there.
But I This is just something I noticed in the series and, you know, the last couple, and just in general.
And I do think you're seeing, i- if you're trying to figure out what's wrong with this bullpen, like, other than just we kind of knew it would be an issue.
That's one thing I just don't love, and I know, you know, other people have noticed it as well.
So, one thing I think we'll be watching going forward is how often he's doing that.
I, I don't remember if you hit this note already yet, but Tony claimed the loss, said it was on him.
Um-So Rob, how about, how about Susak in that situation?
Do we put any of it on him?
I know on offense he already earned them s- a run, but that catcher's interference call couldn't have come at a worse time.
Yeah, I mean, it's, you know What was it, 2020 we did those every other game- with the young guys.
So it's, those happen.
I think in general he's been really good defensively.
Yeah.
So, you know, that's You're looking for positives here, you're looking, you're grasping at straws.
Like, Susak's near the top of the list, and I think the fact that he's, you know, pretty clearly We, we've seen some of the other, especially the other year-end catcher, like there's growing, there's gonna be growing pains there.
I think Susak, this play aside, he's got a rifle.
And I, I actually think, like, watching It's interesting for me because I'm usually there, and then being, like, I was hosting all weekend, and then I was in studio kind of during this, most of this trip.
And you get a different angle of the framing when you're watching it li- when you're watching on TV every pitch.
And- Mm-hmm it's not as, no one's as smooth a framer as Patrick is, but he's a pretty good framer I think.
So- Yeah he's a little more demonstrative, but, but, yeah, he, I think he's pretty good at it.
So I don't really worry about this.
I think in general I've, I've been surprised by, by how solid he is defensively.
Of course the game ends with that walk-off, and we gotta give a shout-out to the excellent silent, the excellent lack of call, I guess we're gonna say, on the NBC Sports broadcast by friend and family of the pod, Duane Kuiper.
Yeah.
just- Can I ask you a question about that?
Yeah.
That, that struck me as, like, when your dad is so angry he's not even mad, he's disappointed.
And is, does it, he just stares at you and doesn't even have to yell at you.
Is this your life experience?
I've, I've heard that call.
You know, I, I could hear the, the flavor of that silence, and I, it brought back something from my teens that I, I had forgotten.
no, I asked him about that.
He said it's a, it's a, a card Hawk Harrelson has pulled out a few times in his career, just the, the marinate in the silence after a bad moment.
And in the moment back then he was like, "I don't love it, but it just was perfect for this."
Oh, it was perfect.
And it was, I don't say this just because he's your dad and he's, you know, obviously a friend of mine.
I'd, I've went through, I mean, that call was everywhere and- Yeah I was looking at some of the, the responses from, you know.
Always dangerous to look at responses on Twitter, but- Absolutely it was interesting, seeing some of the quote tweets from, like, it's usually, like, Padres fans who are bitter.
But, seeing some of their quote tweets and I kind of was struck with, like, it was the perfect call in that moment because you just kind of have to be there as a Giants fan.
Mm-hmm.
And that was like, I, I saw a lot of people being like, "You, you know, you gotta, no matter what you have to call it."
And I'm like, nope, that was the perfect Giants call.
Because it was like, this is what they have lived for 50 games.
Yeah.
And what else do you say at that point?
And I also thought it was, like, a let's cut the mics off before someone gets fired, like- situation.
So, no, I loved it and- Yeah you're right.
I, it was, it was one of those calls that definitely made the rounds, broke containment.
Yeah.
I was disappointed on a lot of the, the reposts of that to see, like, you know, the John Boy accounts.
"Giants broadcaster goes silent."
You know what his name is, John Boy.
Yeah.
You used to live in the Bay Area.
Come on.
Come on.
Name it.
Well, we have our own issues with- Yeah.
There were yeah, it was I loved it.
It was, yeah, it was, it struck me as like, I'm not even mad, I'm disappointed at this point.
Yeah.
What else do you say?
I, I will say I think the studio crew, there's a little padding there, and I've been hosting a lot recently.
Like, you get a little, like, all right, 45 until show.
And I wasn't on that night, but from what I heard they were like, "Okay, you guys are up."
Yeah.
There's, there's no- Of course they type, have, turned their microphones off 30 seconds early.
Yeah, you're up.
Ready to go.
We're, uh- The show starts right now.
So.
All right.
And then of course Wednesday they head into the day game to avoid the sweep with Merrill Kelly on the mound, which is not a situation you ever want to be in- No if you're the Giants.
Predictably did not go great.
They did hit Kelly for a few runs, but certainly not enough.
All of a sudden you blink and they're 10 games under.
I, I was shocked by the stat, 10 games under for the first time since July of 2019.
Which feels like we've covered this in recent years, but I guess they never dipped that far.
You're telling me.
And they usually found a way to find their way back.
That is mind-boggling.
So first time 10 games under since the Bruce Bochy era.
I'm gonna do the Duane Kuiper.
I- Yeah silent.
It was, yeah, that was a, that was right when Dickerson showed up and was like, "Hey, it's, let's go on a crazy run here and not trade anybody," because- Yeah, no need to rebuild.
Yeah.
Alex Dickerson's saving your team.
Let's take a step back.
So that, that's what the first thing that popped in my head.
Yeah.
We're, we are coming close to the one-year mark for Rafael Devers, because they were first place, one of the best teams in the league- Yeah when that happened.
It was just a reminder of, like, they're approaching this from all different angles in recent years.
And th- we did, I think my prediction this year was that they would get off to a rough start and then go on a run.
I didn't think the hole would ever be anywhere close to this big.
So.
Well, yeah.
We, are we still at the point where we can call this a start?
No.
I mean, I, I really thought when you look at the April schedule, like, they were gonna have a losing record at the end of April and maybe a few games under.
And- Mm-hmm excuse me.
And then, you know, at some point find a way to rattle off, like, a series like this.
Like, you win two out of three it ends up being a good trip.
And you're not within shouting distance of a playoff spot, but you're not, like-To the point where we're, you know, we're sitting in studio yesterday looking up like how many teams have ever gone 20 and 30 and even gotten back to 500?
And the list is like extremely small.
So, 20 and 30 is just a, it's a big, big hole and- This is the third time the Giants have lost 30 of their first 50 in the wildcard era.
2008 they did it, ended the season s- 72 and 90.
And then 2017, not that long ago, they did it ending at 64 and 98.
Just an all-time awful, season.
So they're not in great company.
No.
And they're not statistically, looking like this is going to turn around.
Stranger things have happened, but I am I have reached the acceptance point of this season.
You know?
I'm not sitting here doing the, "We're so back," every time they get on base.
It is I, I'm in the, the coping stage.
Yeah, I noticed even after the A's series you didn't hit us with the we're so back.
Mm-hmm.
So you were kind of like, "All right, two out of three."
It's been burned before, Alex.
Yeah.
My takeaway from that stat is that four years from now, something really good's gonna happen.
For like, Joshua, Luis Hernandez, like- Okay we'll run here.
Maybe even- 108 wins loading now.
Mark your calendar.
This pod's gonna be great in 2030.
Yes.
And of course, we promised our listeners every series from here on out we would do a little Eldridge watch- Yeah segment.
So h- what did Eldridge do this series?
He did play two of three, majority of the games.
two for four on Monday with a strikeout.
Did not play Tuesday.
And had brought in Matt Chapman with a, with a hard hit double on Wednesday.
Yeah, 113.4. hardest hit ball of the year for the Giants.
It was Would've been a home run at 16 ballparks.
That is like a deep, deep center field.
Mm-hmm.
I- that was the type of swing that I, I just You know, we're not breaking any new ground here, but I don't see how you watch that swing and just sit him at all.
Yeah.
And just And I, you know, I was doing the show with Rich yester- Rich Aurilia, and he made a great point that I wanted to steal from him.
That he's been in that position and he said the really hard thing when you're not getting consistent time is that you don't get in a rhythm, and you go out there and try to do something good, 'cause you don't wanna go like 0 for four.
So you're like, "Let me go out here and get a Like, draw a walk today."
Which is great.
Like, especially for this Giants team, they need a walk.
But his, his point was that they're not putting Bryce in a position where he gets comfortable.
And let's say he gets two hits and he gets to play the next day, and he's like feels like he's in a rhythm, feels good, feels like he doesn't have to just go out there and reach base just to prove that he should be in the lineup.
Mm-hmm.
And can kind of let what he does take over and, you know, hit a homer and maybe hit a couple homers in one of these games at some point.
So I, I think that's part of this as well.
They're not letting him ever just find any sort of consistency.
I don't think This for me is like a, in a world where nothing anymore is like a 99 to one issue, this is a 99 to one issue.
Like it's, it's, I don't know anybody in the world other than people making the Giants lineup.
Like you, you said broke containment with Duane.
This is broken containment with Bryce as well.
Like- Yeah what- We got a big article from Bob Nightengale about it- Yeah with quotes from Bryce.
Bryce said, "It is what it is.
You can argue every day that playing every day would be helpful, but I'm happy to be here."
Obviously putting a neutral, politically correct attitude- Yeah out there.
But you have to imagine it, it's disappointing to him.
And this is the kind of issue that isn't threatening this season as much as threatening like his development and the future of this organization.
So that's what puts it so high on the priority list.
Yeah, I just don't think there's any argument on the other side of this.
And like, you know, the one argument they had and that I, I was trying to do my best to see their side of it is like, look, it's, it's hard to find You can't bench Matt Chapman.
You can't bench some of these other guys.
So it's hard, it's hard to find the lineup spot.
But in a weird way, this opened up with Elliott Ramos getting hurt.
And I Like, Casey's looked fine in left field.
Mm-hmm.
He made a nice running catch yesterday.
I'd just try it for You know, just, just do it for a weekend.
And if, if it's a defensive disaster and the answer to this is that, "You know what?
Casey's been our best hitter.
Casey has nine home runs.
We should mention him.
Like, he's been, he's been really good and it's not fair to throw him out in left field 'cause it's Look what happened."
If that's the case, then you know, you have the conversation about whether Bryce needs to go to Sacramento every day.
But like there's an opening here to play both of them every single day.
And it's a little bit tougher on Casey, but the flip side of that is that he gets to play every day and Bryce gets to play every day.
And it's I just don't think there's another side of this, and I, I don't really understand what they're doing.
I, I try to always I know people call me at home or I, I think my job is to explain what the Giants are thinking knowing what I know being in the clubhouse, having access to their front office.
This is one where I have a really hard time even like coming up with like knowing their side of it or even giving their side of it.
Mm-hmm.
'Cause you know, we've asked Tony and one thing he said is like, "There's gonna be the pinch hit opportunities.
He's gonna get into games that way."
Well no, he's not.
He's not pinch hitting.
So, his whole thing was like there might be a game where he pinch hits and he gets two at bats.
Like, it's not happening.
Yeah.
So I think we said it last podcast, we've said it before of like let's see if this earns him three starts.
This is again like, let's see if this He better be in the lineup Friday.
We're making baby steps there, but it's- Yeah.
Th- this brings us I wanna, I wanna do another surprise mail bag question before we get to our big group of them.
End Zone says, "What are your opinions on the directions the Giants need to commit to for the remainder of the season?
"Focus strictly on the young guys and trade away some of our big pieces, commit to a win now mentality, and r- trade for more big pieces.
Think this is the real This is a point at the season now where we're seeing what seems to be what the 2026 Giants will look like, and does that change what, I don't know, the effort of this season or the, the main goal of this season is?
Obviously for Tony Vitello it'd be really tough your inaugural manager season to punt, to tear it down, to look to the future.
But I, I'm fully on board with it's time to think about doing that.
You know, we talk about there not being room for Bryce.
I love Luis Arias.
I wouldn't hate moving him now while he's hot.
Yeah.
Bringing up the infield a little for Bryce to have every day playing time and, and see what prospects you can get.
Kind of be in the, the Red Sox situation they were in last year when they moved Devers super early.
100%.
I think the, you know, the move There's two things I'll say about this.
You hit on one of them which is the, the immediate move, and I think the move they're gonna have to make at some point is jump the market on a couple things and- Mm-hmm you know, even if somebody like Robbie turns it around, he, he's a free agent at the end of the year.
there's value in being like, "Here's five extra starts."
Or- Yeah "Here's even three extra starts that you get out of him."
I think Arias is the obvious one.
I will continue to say, anyone who is saying extend him, you're just not living in the same world as me.
He, he's been unbelievable.
He's been, he's been their best player.
He's been unreal defensively.
it- there's only one option given where they are with them guys.
You don't, you don't like the comments saying extend, Arias and trade Chapman?
That brings me to my second point, which is I see a lot of chatter.
We get a lot of questions.
I've, you know, listened to a lot of the local radio stations recently and, I always joke about this.
I have, like, kids at the playground.
I'm just scrolling the for you tab and seeing what people are angry about.
Everyone's talking rebuild.
Rebuild, first of all, they're not gonna do it.
Second of all, everyone's avoiding what this actually means and that means Logan Webb.
Yeah.
That doesn't mean anything else.
Not all of this.
Everything else is meaningless.
So if you're out there doing a radio show and saying they need to go into a full rebuild, they blah, blah, blah, you're talking about Logan Webb.
So you either need to accept that or, or you just have to That's what you're talking about, like, if you're having this conversation.
Because the rest of this is guys who are, you know, contracts are expiring.
Bullpen guys.
Yeah, that happens every year anyway.
We saw it happen last year.
Ademas has a no trade.
Chapman has a no trade.
Devers has 210 million, 211 left on his contract after this year.
If you are advocating for a rebuild, you are talking about one person.
Yeah.
So you need to wrap your head around those thoughts before you just go out there and tweet, "Giants need to rebuild."
Yeah.
It's- Because do you wanna wake up next year and one person is not on their team?
Yeah.
And finally getting the, the Cy Young that he's- Yeah looking at over here.
Yeah.
And I, it's, that's such a big weighty topic, but I, I just think I, I've noticed a lot of that.
Everyone's just It's really easy to sit at home and say, "Trade this guy.
Trade that guy," without looking at his contract, without looking at the details of it.
Which we've tried to go over here.
But I just it, it has struck me recently that everyone is just avoiding the elephant in the room, which is the way you truly rebuild.
Yeah.
and I don't think they should.
And I don't think they will.
But that is, that is the person you have to talk about if you wanna talk about rebuilding.
Yeah.
It's, I- as far as this season, I think it's, it's a hedge, bolster for the future, move the pieces that aren't going to help you in the future- Yeah if this season is no longer a priority.
But overall rebuild, that would be heartbreaking.
Yeah.
And look, for better or worse- Because yeah, the guys who, the guys who aren't performing, the guys who, who would be, like, addition by subtraction could be improved on are not movable pieces.
Yeah.
Because of the way their contracts are, because who's gonna want them?
Yeah.
And it's, yeah, it's That's our always, that's our joke always.
It's like, "Oh, you hate watching this guy, but you think another fan base is gonna be hyped about-" Yeah.
Let me give you our two top prospects.
Yeah.
Taking on that contract.
yeah.
I think, you know, I, for me it's, it's what you said and there's another element here which is for better or worse you are tied into this core.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, you kinda just need to play him a little bit and figure out who else is part of this, like an Eldridge.
I love that Parks Harbor started to play some outfield in double A.
Like, maybe we see him late in the year or maybe he's a piece next year.
you know, things like that.
But there's, there's no full scale tear down here.
Yeah.
It's, I, I think you made the important point which is the main idea of what happens next is Buster has to decide at what point do you just kinda pull the plug, and start to trade some of these pieces- Yeah and dump the market.
And the interesting thing about that is we've seen before, like, you can do that in a weird way.
You could be in better shape a month later.
Yeah.
'Cause you look up- All of a sudden you get hot.
Yeah, you get hot and maybe, maybe guys start, some pressure is taken off 'cause they realize that, you know, what's just happened.
so they could find themselves in a better spot record wise.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
We have more mail bag questions, then we're gonna preview the upcoming White Sox series.
But first, Giants Talk is presented by Mancini's Sleepworld.
Mancini's is now the official sleep partner of the San Francisco Giants.
Get moving towards better sleep and save up to $1,200 on top brands at the Mancini's Memorial Day sale.
Plus, your purchase is backed by their 365 night comfort guarantee, which gives you a whole year to try your mattress and make sure it's giving you the comfort you deserve.Stop by or visit online to see what's currently available.
All right, Alex, our first question ties very nicely into that topic.
Duncan says, "Best guess, what is the Giants' record right now if Devers, Chapman, and Adames are playing at their career averages starting from the beginning of the season?"
Great question.
hard to figure out.
I will say Patrick Bailey's probably still here.
Yeah.
That's it.
The whole roster looks completely different now.
Yeah, I mean, look, this is a flawed roster in, in a lot of ways.
The bullpen conversation we had, the pit- starting pitching has been a disappointment.
But if you have these guys anywhere close to where they're supposed to be, you're, I would say at least four games better.
Yeah.
Five maybe.
I was gonna say even more than that.
Yeah.
But I, I think baseball's one of those, you When you look at a stat like WAR, it really makes it clear how micro You could just get micro better- Yeah with improvements like that.
It's a sport where one guy doesn't take over.
But it feels like they would have seven or eight more wins.
Would they?
I don't know.
It might be.
I mean, you Can you imagine if all those guys had even seven homers?
Yeah.
And you throw that in with, with Casey being this breakout and Luis Arias being so much better than we ever could've imagined.
and that was kind of the concept of how they could be good early on, is just kind of go out there and outscore teams.
So yeah, this is a The way I led off the show, like it just kind of everything circles back to what you're getting from the heart of your lineup and- Yeah and the main guys here.
Next question is from Will.
Will says, "For all the talk about how great Wash has been for Arias, it seems like Chappy has regressed defensively.
Do you think there's any correlation, or is it more taking his tough start offensively to the field?"
You know, I think he gets He This is the old, like Brandon Crawford dealt with this sometimes, like everything looks so easy day to day, and then he'd make a throw from a ball deep in the hole that someone else, like lets go into left field easily.
Mm-hmm.
And he, he'd get hit with the error.
And I First of all, the advanced stuff on Chapman is, is still very good.
so it's, it's not If you're looking at errors, you're gonna, you're, you're gonna find one way of looking at it.
If you're looking at defensive runs saved and, outs above average.
Like, outs above average is not as high as it's been in the past, but I think defensive runs saved has been very kind to him this year.
And I, I would just go with the old eye test for me as well.
Like, day to day he's excellent defensively.
Yeah.
There's been more big mistakes than we've ex- seen in the past.
Mm-hmm.
he's not like prime Matt Chapman anymore, but he's what?
33.
Yeah.
So there's been some early throwing mistakes.
but I, I think I don't worry about his defense at all.
Day to day, like he gets to so many balls, slow rollers, you know, balls down the line that most third basemen in this league, other than like Arenado, who you mentioned, and maybe Machado and, and Hayes, like most guys don't even get a play off, so.
Yeah.
It's one of those situations where the errors are allowed.
You know, the errors- Yeah stick in your memory.
And I Defensive advanced metrics are still such a blind spot for me, you know?
I pull up his baseball reference and I couldn't tell you what, you know, RDRS slash year.
Yeah.
What, what is a good number for that.
But he, he's above career average on quite a few things right now.
And, and I don't know.
He's I think he's just getting a, a bad look here.
And if he were hitting, I don't think anyone would mention or, or think about his defense right now.
Yeah.
His defense is very low on my list of things I've thought about watching- Yes the Giants this year.
Yes.
All right, next question is from Bob, the father of friend of the show Therese Vinyol.
Oh.
Hello, Bob.
Who says, "I always read how people are badmouthing Posey for all his moves.
But besides Harrison, which one of the ex-Giants has flourished outside of the organization?"
Besides Harrison, it's probably that- We mentioned someone earlier who Bob also mentioned.
But I Is this a, is this where we do talk for a moment about Kyle Harrison?
Kyle Harrison yesterday, seven innings, I think two hits, 11 or 12 strikeouts.
I saw a highlight reel.
He looked exactly like Kyle Harrison who showed up and shoved against the Reds, and you're like- Not one fatal line is this the guy who can just throw a fastball down the middle and nobody can hit it?
Yeah.
And, I believe his ERA is 1.77 on the year.
Yeah.
Something like that.
And he has credited that to, I think it was a new pitch he learned or a new arm slot he learned in Boston that they're kind of refining now in Milwaukee.
So would he be doing that here?
I don't know.
You know, I talked to him.
It was more something in the off-season.
I think Boston tried to put him through boot camp and didn't really work.
Mm-hmm.
I think the most important thing with Kyle is he is fully healthy.
And, you know, when you talk about The Giants actually got him to the big leagues and he looked pretty good initially.
Yeah.
And we saw some real highlights from him.
The shoulder stuff popped up.
And I, I think the biggest mistake they made with Kyle, and this is not a development thing, this was almost a PR thing, was he was He never should've been in a competition with Hayden Birdsong in Mendenhall, last spring.
Like, he was, he was not fully recovered from the shoulder stuff.
He lost some weight at the start of camp.
He got sick.
And he was playing catch-up and he was never right.
Um- Mm-hmm so I, I don't actually think this is a Look, Milwaukee does this with pitchers better than anybody, and they should try to find a way to steal some of that secret sauce.
And they have.
Their pitching coach spent some time there.
Zach Minasian came from Milwaukee s- as well.
So they've tried that.
I, I think the-The, like, and also Kyle got them Raffy Devers.
Yeah.
So it's like it worked out the way it's supposed to.
I, we're just happy for him for the most part, like glad that he's healthy.
And yeah, I, I don't know if this is like a big development failure 'cause he turned into a good prospect and, and got him Devers, and it was what they expected out of the draft.
But that's what I always think of when I go back to, to the end of Kyle's tenure is like, they kind of didn't frame it the correct way that last spring.
Yeah.
I, I will say, w- I got us off track here.
The question was, besides Harrison, which ex-Giants have flourished?
Tyler Rogers would be the, the notable one.
I don't think anyone is surprised that he's continuing to do his, his UFO magic elsewhere.
Yeah.
You know, there haven't actually been I mean, no disrespect to the question, there's just not a big sample size of like- Mm-hmm guys who have gone elsewhere.
So Duvall's been bad.
Rogers has been great.
and I think even, like on the flip side of some of those trades, there have been times where you look at it and go like, "Holy crap, you got that at the deadline last year?"
But you also sit back right, right now and go like, "Okay, it's not, they're not getting a ton from that, from that group at the moment."
So.
Yeah.
I think the jury's still out on, on those trades for the most part.
What about Jean's Tibbs?
Well, that's a Boston mistake.
With that.
Yeah.
I mean, I, I kind of go back to like, it, those two guys have ended up being good, Harrison and Tibbs, but like, that's the cost of doing business to get someone who's supposed to be one of the best 10, 15 hitters in the National League.
Yeah, exactly.
Y- they, they were only able to trade for Devers because Harrison was who he was.
Yeah.
and then Tibbs obviously wouldn't really be an issue if they hadn't immediately flipped him to Los Angeles, where he has 11 home runs already in their AAA roster.
There were 28 other teams they could've sent him to.
Come on.
Nobody would care.
All right.
Couple more.
Next question is from Ted.
What's going on with Ryan Walker?
No appearances since his demotion.
He appeared last night.
Um- Okay he's in Sacramento.
I believe he took some time to work on some things in their pitch lab.
that's what it sounded like.
I went back and I looked at what he did last He looked good last night.
Um- Okay you know, looked like he was better command.
slider looked much better.
So I don't know if he found something or if that was just, you know, there's been times where he's looked excellent this year for the Giants as well.
Closed out the Dodgers back to back nights.
but I don't know.
Yeah, he's in Sacramento now, so we'll, we'll track him a little bit more going forward, but it did take him a little bit of time.
All right.
Now I'm gonna end us with a kind of fun one from Nathan that we got a while back that I've been sitting on.
Nathan says, "With the success of ABS and its roots in tennis, could you foresee more tools from other sports being utilized in MLB?
For example, in cricket they use thermal cameras and sound graphs to help determine if a ball is hitting the bat or the timing of a bang bang play.
Seems like watching the heat flash of a ball hitting a glove and a foot hitting first base and other definitive as evidence could help replay reviews.
What do you see as other technology baseball could explore?"
I popped a few ideas down here that I think could be worth it.
Soccer has tracking chips in the balls that I think would be cool for fair or foul, for bang bang plays.
obviously then your cost per ball goes up probably a lot.
Soccer doesn't lose as many balls into the- Yeah stands as baseball does.
how about football?
Alex, instead of just guessing on long home runs, they drag out a really long chain with two spikes on the end and measure it manually.
I like where your head's at.
I think my guy Rob, who's done a great job cutting down game times, would probably- probably gawk at that.
this isn't so much a rules one as much as a broadcast one, but Formula 1 racing does biometrics on all their drivers, and I would think it'd be really cool to have like the closer's heart rate up on the broadcast during the ninth inning in crunch time.
Remember in a, in a nicer time for Giants fans when JP Martinez checked Camilo Duvall's pace or, uh- Exactly pulse in- His pulse.
I- ice in his veins.
Yeah.
'Cause it was like, do you even breathe?
Yeah.
It was I like that one.
Yeah.
And then last one.
This isn't tech, but a rule.
In hockey, I, you know, as overtimes go on and on, they lose players on the ice.
Bill, long proponent of losing a fielder every inning in extra innings.
I would've accepted that over the 10th, 10th inning rule, but- Absolutely.
I want more, more balls in the gap.
Where are you playing your, your Where are you putting your missing guy?
You know, I think the thing that sticks out, you mentioned it, like balls down the line.
Why are we still relying on a guy who's- Yeah trying to jump out of the way to see whether it, They're trying to Whether it was fair or foul.
plays the first.
There's gotta be a better way to do that.
Those are ones that it just seems like th- as I look around the world and we have self-driving cars- Yeah all this stuff, surely there is technology that can make all of these things 100% clear.
Check swings.
You, you- There Yeah can't put something in the bat that shows the angle when the ball crosses its plane that tells it, tells us if it was a check swing or not?
Well, I mean, we have that now.
Like you can go on Baseball Savant and look at a guy's bat tracking on everything.
Yes.
And so I, I think that's in AAA now, so that is probably coming, but- Okay there, the check swing thing strikes me as also being a really easy like In that, I don't even think you need the challenge or anything, just like buzz the umpire.
Yeah.
Like, "Hey, you know what?
He did go.
He crossed the, crossed the swing."
Exactly.Exactly.
but that is a great question.
I'm sure there are some blind spots around the sports world for me, so if anyone has any good, sports tech that MLB should, try stealing, I would love to hear it in our mentions.
also, if you have any mailbag questions for Giants Talk, go ahead and send them wherever you can find Alex or myself on social media.
We'll add them to our list.
With that, the White Sox are coming into town, Alex, and it is not your 2025 White Sox team.
White Sox are in the middle of a rebuild.
They're still on that upward swing.
But last year, were one of the worst teams in baseball history.
Yeah.
And they're above .500 now as they come into San Francisco.
Yeah.
They're, they're like the old, spunky, young, rebuilding team that, Murakami's been unbelievable.
Obviously, they have a couple other guys.
Yes.
Nick Madrigal, I think, has, like, 13 homers.
So they're second in the big leagues in home runs, the anti-Giants.
looking at the pitching matchups, it is Davis Martin, who's six and one with a 1.60 ERA- Ooh versus Trevor McDonald.
Can't say I know much about Davis Martin.
We always joke about the White Sox.
AL Central is, like, a blind spot for us.
Absolutely.
And there's too much going on in both of our lives to fill that blind spot.
So- It's- we'll deal with the Central when they show up.
But as we talk about, like, you know, oh, the offense needs to get it together.
Oh, Bryce needs to start on- Yeah on Friday.
Looking at that six, one, one, six is, is rough.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm looking forward to being there Friday and seeing how he gets to that num- Like, w- who is this guy?
Eric Fedde versus Adrian Houser, couple veterans.
And then Noah Schultz versus Robbie Ray, the lefties, on Sunday.
yeah, they've been playing, they've been playing good baseball of late.
So it On paper, this was two weeks that looked pretty easy, easy-ish for the Giants.
Mm-hmm.
But has not turned out to be that way.
And also Chicago's, I, I, I don't think it's gonna be that easy a weekend all of a sudden.
Yeah.
And right around the corner as they just get swept by the Diamondbacks after the White Sox is another turn on ye olde Diamondbacks.
so it's- Wow you're right.
This, this easy pocket, this chance to make up games, this 500 or even third place in the NL West is in sight, has, has evaporated.
Yeah.
And now it's just stay alive mode or better yet, don't worry about staying alive.
Cultivate the future.
Yeah.
Or just get, you know, double digit games under is tough.
Yeah.
So get it back to single digits and then inch in the right direction.
Saturday, Fiesta Giants chain hat, which I've seen.
It's kind of cool.
Yeah.
Uh- I have it in my closet.
Do you?
Sunday, Star Wars Day.
Baby Yoda bobblehead.
Alex, can you tell me what Baby Yoda's actual name is?
Nope.
It's, I It is what the actual bobblehead is called.
I just put Baby Yoda to see if I could quiz you.
Oh, it's, this was, in our studio.
Groku?
Nice.
Look at you, my, my Star Wars nerd.
So yeah, there was a Gro- There was someone's like, "Here's a Groku."
And I'm like, "Okay."
So, I believe this is their seventh Star Wars Day of the year.
You know what?
If Hello Kitty and Star Wars Day every day, every home game- Most likely until the season's over.
Every single time there's a Star Wars Day I'm like, "We've done this already."
And they're like, "No, we have not.
This is our first of the year."
And I'm like, "I- that's BS."
"There's no way this is your first Star Wars Day of the year."
all right.
We will be there this weekend, as the Giants take on the White Sox, try to right the ship, try to get things going again.
Alex will be collecting his, his Baby Yoda bobblehead.
Groku.
Until and after the series, Giants Talk will be back to debrief that and see where they're at.
thanks for listening.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts.
Send us a mailbag question.
Buy Alex's book.
leave us a glowing review.
Remember, don't judge us based on what is happening on the field.
We're trying our hardest out here.
I'm just gonna end with I'm very excited to get a Groku.
Yeah.
So.
You have a spot right behind you on your bobblehead shelf that would fit perfectly for a, a little Star Wars guy.
You What was, what was the odds?
You thought it was, like, 2% chance I got that correct?
I thought it was zero.
Zero.
I, I was just setting you up for embarrassment and you pulled it out.
Getting older, getting wiser.
All right.
We'll be back.
