Analyzing Schoen’s future with Harbaugh as coach
Michael Holley and Mike Florio discuss Joe Schoen's role in singing John Harbaugh as Giants head coach and question what Harbaugh's power in New York means for the general manager.
Video Transcript
They deserve credit for doing whatever they had to do to get it done.
And Joe Schoen deserves credit for recognizing the rising tide will lift all boats.
Now, there is some risk.
There is some risk that if John Harbaugh has success, but believes we could have even more success if this person I worked with in Baltimore, in the front office.
Who wasn't the GM, but has all the traits, and all the skills.
And knows the recipe, knows how to work that compensatory draft pick thing.
The Ravens have perfected that.
Let's poach somebody from the Ravens front.
Office to be the new GM.
And when you got a direct pipeline to ownership, Who knows what John Harbaugh is saying?
That's why the red flag first went up for me.
When Chris Mara went to meet with John Harbaugh, and there was no sign of Joe Schoen.
Right.
It's Chris Marra, John Harbaugh, at Harbaugh's house, having an informal lunch meeting, where, you know, a lot of work got done.
And then apparently, Mara went back again on Friday.
Ian O'Connor of The Athletic had some blow-by-blow reporting of how this happened.
Schoen had to understand, "You know what?
Long-term, this may hurt me."
Long-term, I'm gonna have to give some credit to Harbaugh.
Long-term, I'm gonna be taking some risk that Harbaugh may just decide he could do this.
Better with someone he's worked with in Baltimore."
And I think it's incumbent on soon to figure it out pretty quickly.
"What does this guy want from me?"
How can I give it to him?"
And if I'm Schoen, I'm getting on the horn with people in Baltimore, and I'm finding out everything I can about how to stay on the right side of John.
Harbaugh.
That's right.
That's right.
How does he... Hey, where does he like to go for breakfast?
How does he like his coffee?
Uh, Tell me something about him.
Uh, tell me, hey, what's his favorite book, besides Big Shield?
What's his favorite book?
I'm gonna, I'm gonna, You know, I'm gonna start quoting that, and his favorite shows.
And all this stuff."
And see, I don't know Joe Schoen, Mike.
But I give him... Respectfully, I give him no credit.
I give him no credit whatsoever, because it's just obvious.
It's, it's, um, it's self-preservation for him.
He's fortunate.
And there are other GMs who are fortunate, and this is.
Uh, I know it's a pet peeve of yours, and it's a, a pet peeve of mine, too.
Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll came in together.
They came in together.
They were a package deal.
Oh, yes, we are aligned, and this is a partnership," and all that.
All the cliches that they say at these opening press conferences.
And then along the way, oh, I don't know.
Uh, what happened to the partnership?
One partner's, uh, on the West Coast; one partner's on the East Coast.
What happened?
Um, uh, "Oh, I didn't... Oh, you were in a meeting without me?
Oh, um.
Oh, I, I was available."
And so Joe Schoen is there, and Brian Daboll is fired.
So Joe Schoen, the smart thing to do is say, Yes, sir.
Uh, yeah, I'm, uh, that's okay.
I don't need final say.
That's all right.
Uh, yes, I can work...
I'm collaborative," all these things.
Because he's fortunate to be there.
And if it were me, if I'm the, if I'm the owner... Say, "Mike, when we, when we own our team together, you know, you're the, Uh, you're the general manager, I'm the head coach, or vice versa.
We're, we're...
Listen, we're, we're, we're a team.
We go down together, we win together.
Like, don't give me this, We started off as partners, and somehow, uh, we had a, a division of power, or somehow we fell out, and one guy stays, and one guy is out on the street.
So Joe Schoen is fortunate that he's there to work with Harbaugh.
And, uh, the best thing to do is just to give the man what he wants.
And to, uh, not make a lot of noise.
Because I- if, If it were me, he wouldn't even be there.
Creating an environment where the coach and the GM have different standards, and they each have the possibility of staying through adversity because it may be blamed on the other guy.
That is a hallmark of a dysfunctional team.
And we talk about it a lot, because it's the dysfunctional teams that are always back looking for coaches or general managers, and the cycle can be never-ending.
We've got a coach and a GM.
Okay, we're firing the coach.
Here's the GM.
Go hire a coach."
Hires a coach, doesn't work out.
Well, this time we're gonna fire the GM.
Now we got a coach.
We gotta find a new GM.
New GM comes in.
GM maybe wouldn't have hired this coach, then we're gonna fire the coach, then the GM hires a coach.
Then they fall in love with the coach, or at least blame the GM.
Not the coach.
Then we get rid of the GM, and it continues.
I think it's critical that the...
I use, I use this metaphor all the time, And a lot of people don't understand what a three-legged race is.
I guess they don't have company picnics anymore.
But there was a time-- No!
...
When you'd have the company picnic, and you would do all the events at the company picnic.
You know, when people weren't, like, on their phones all the time.
And actually did stuff.
And one of the events, I mean, the sack race.
The sack race was an event for some reason.
You get in a sack, and you hop from one point to the next.
Oh, isn't that fun?
Yeah, and you fall down, you bust your face.
That's gr- especially after you've had a few, a few beers.
That's great.
But the three-legged race, you get two people, they stand next to each other, you tie one guy's right leg to the other guy's left leg.
And go.
And that's what a GM and a head coach of a functioning organization need to be.
You're either both gonna fall flat on your faces, or you're both gonna get to the finish line.
There's no incentive to try to blame the other guy.
That's where human nature comes in.
I love the human dynamics of professional football, because I think they're transferable to every other walk of life.
Every other business setting.
These things happen.
What happens when things go sideways?
I gotta protect myself.
Well, how do I protect myself?
It's his fault.
It's his fault.
And the danger for the coaches, And I think this is why we see a lot of the coaches get the boot.
While the GM stays and gets to hire a new coach during the game... Coach can't defend himself.
Coach is doing the job.
Somebody's whispering to the owner about how the coach isn't doing what the coach should be.
Doing, and if the coach was doing this and not doing this, or doing that instead of doing that, we'd be winning these games.
And that gets into the owner's head, and the owner decides, during those three very intense hours every week, where you are trying to will your team to victory.
I think the owner's very impressionable then.
So that's where you can get things out of whack.
And I don't know that this...
This doesn't feel like a three-legged race.
Yeah.
It feels like it is set up... For somebody.
Right?
To take the fall if it doesn't work, and here's where I feel bad for Shane.
He spent weeks getting ready for the coaching search, with this idea he's gonna run.
It.
He's hiring the guy who's gonna work for him.
So, you know, it's human nature.
"I'm looking for somebody who's gonna be content with this structure.
You work for me.
I'm getting you this job, okay?
Show a little gratitude.
You work for me.
I hired you.
You work for me."
Then all of a sudden, here comes Harbaugh, and it changes everything, and ownership decides, "Eh, you know... And no, no, look, no one's ever gonna say this, But I think it's all there for us to interpret and analyze.
Hey, you know that plan we had where Joe's gonna hire another coach?
And we'll see if he can do it this ti- Nah.
Hey, Chris.
Li... Go get Harbaugh.
Go get Harbaugh."
Mike, Mike, every- "Whatever it takes."
go get Harbaugh."
Right.
Everything changed.
Think about it.
What's it...
So, probably about a month ago, a month ago, we were saying, Oh, well, I... You know, there's no obvious candidate.
There's no obvious head coaching candidate, uh, on the market right now."
And even, uh, Happle, who just took the job with the Dolphins, his candidacy changed when Micah Parsons got hurt.
So when Micah Parsons, "Oh, Wow, what a great job he's doing on defense.
The Packers, Uh, they, they are Super Bowl contenders.
Oh, wait a minute.
The Packers just backed into the playoffs again, and their defense doesn't look the same."
So there was no obvious candidate a month ago, and now you have...
I know Mike Tomlin's not gonna coach, but you got Mike Tomlin.
Uh, Mike Tomlin's available, theoretically.
You have John Harbaugh available.
You got Sean McDermott available, and the other candidates.
So once that happened, you know, Joe Shane, it's not this.
Hey, those guys are gonna work for me.
No, you've got some Hall of Fame candidates suddenly on the market, and that changes everything.
I'll, I'll tell you where the, where the partnership falls apart.
And I, I just thought of this: Raheem Morris.
So Raheem Morris and Terry Fontenot, That's where the partnership thing doesn't work.
Because if you go back, if you look at the when the Falcons fired Morris, all the stories said, "Oh yeah, Morris was, you know, two games under .500 in two years."
think that's what it was, 16 and 18, something like that.
In two years.
But the Falcons haven't made the playoffs, Uh, since, you know, 2018 or '19.
I'm like, Wait a minute.
What?
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
What's that have to do with me?
I wasn't here in 2019.
I wasn't here in 2021.
So I get...
So you're just gonna pull me in with Terry?
Fontenot, who was here before I was, and I get to go out the door with him?
But wait a minute, I had two years, he had five or six.
How is this fair?
So sometimes it kind of works against you when you are seen as a partner with someone who was there three or four years before you.
And that's the danger of firing the coach, letting the GM hire another coach.
And there's always been kind of a loose sense in the organizations where the GM is above the coach, that the GM gets to hire two coaches before the GM is on the hot seat.
The problem is, if you come in as the second coach hired by the GM, there's a good chance you're gonna go along with the GM.
And you're gonna pay for the past sins of the organization that you had nothing to do with.
And that's part of the risk you take when you take that job under that structure where you work with or for the GM.
So I still think that's the better way to do it.
Now, look, what they're doing in Atlanta is a little confusing to me because Matt brought in to be fully in charge of the football operation.
It complicates the search for a GM, because Matt Ryan has final say.
This is kind of the Kyle Shanahan problem.
Not that it didn't work out, but he had to go off the board and find somebody who wasn't working for another team.
Because the other teams can say, "No, you can't interview or hire someone from our front office."
if it's not a true GM job, because this person isn't getting the GM powers.
It's just the GM title."
So I think it's not gonna be easy for the Falcons now.
But the idea is clean slate, everybody works together, and you either rise together or you fall together.
And when it happens, ownership needs to have the discipline.
And also the good sense to realize how, when adversity strikes, the human beings who are working for the owner will deploy predictable.
Hmm... Human nature strategies for preserving their revenue stream.
And the easiest is, "It's not my fault."
Well, Whose fault is it then?
His.
Right.
And that's what happens.
Right.
But Yeah...
But I really don't think it's a three-legged race in New York.
I think John Harbaugh said to Joe Shane, "Hop on my back, And let's go.
And as long as your heels don't dig into my, my thighs.
I'll keep, I'll keep carrying you-" or, or, You know, I mean, if you help me, that's the key.
It worked for George Payton in Denver.
When Sean Payton came in, I thought George Payton's days were numbered, in large part because he traded for Russell.
Wilson, and he agreed to give Russell Wilson a massive market-level contract when they didn't need to do it.
And that collusion grievance that they hid for five months.
When that finally came out, part of what's in that 61 pages is some evidence that was developed during the grievance case.
'cause Russell Wilson was one of the three quarterbacks, along with Kyler Murray and Lamar Jackson, who pushed this thing.
Greg Penner, the true CEO of the Denver Broncos, was raising the question of: Why do we need this?
And so I thought, I thought George Payton had a problem when Sean Payton showed up.
But you know what?
It worked.
And maybe George Payton got on the phone with Mickey Loomis in New Orleans and took notes on what it takes to make Sean Payton happy.
So that's Joe Schoen's job going forward.
His job has changed.
And they can downplay it all they want.
And I, I like Joe.
I'm not trying to make a problem for Joe.
But I think we'd be foolish, naive, and not serving the audience if we don't say, John Harbaugh's in charge here.
And- Yeah.
If John Harbaugh has success, he could use some of that equity that he acquires.
Within the organization to say, "Hey, let me tell you about..." Maybe you should just meet this person who's the whatever.
Director of college scouting, director of pro scouting, VP of player personnel.
One of the people working for Eric DeCosta in Baltimore.
I've, I've worked with this person for a long time, and, you know, to get us, to g- you want another Super Bowl trophy?
Right?
Four is nice, five's better."
I think this may be, this may be the way to get there, and Shane's just gotta hope that doesn't happen.
And one way to keep it from happening is to be the person.
To morph into the person that Harbaugh would otherwise want from Baltimore.
